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Subject: Rafale F2 vs F-16 Blk52 , 6-2 on the 1st day
Bluewings12    8/2/2008 6:54:12 PM
Recently , the USAF invited some Rafale F2s to do some advanced dogfighting against some F-16s Blk 52 . It was a one v one confrontation repeated multiple times . The drill did last 3 days . The French and the Americans pilots had to find each other in a big portion of sky (100x100 km/square), then close in and go dogfighting . The French Airforce only released the results of the first day : 6-2 in favor of the Rafale . It has been on the French news on the main TV channel TF1 . Video : h*tp://videos.tf1.fr/video/news/0,,3931177,00-contre-rafale-vrai-faux-combat-.html Quick translation of the video (the good bits): French pilot : " we 're going to separate in the zone and then try to find each other , one Rafale and one F-16 , then go do WVR . We feel that the USAF is very curious about the Rafale and we think that they know what they are up against , so I think that we 're going to bluff them " Second French Pilot talk : " It went well , the F-16s were very cool to fight against and we managed to shootdown them from time to time , it was good " Commentator : "The Americans admit that they have been impressed by the French fighter " The USAF pilot : " The Rafale is an aircraft with unique capabilities which can be flown in a very aggressive manner , more than the F-16 . But you know , the most important is the capabilities of the pilot (!)" ***************** I think that sums up a lot , BUT I remind you that the Rafale pilots are not allowed to use active jamming during drills with Allies (SPECTRA and OSF have only been used to find the opponent). It also shows that the APG-68(v9) radar (with a quoted range of 300km )doesn 't give an adge to the Falcon against the PESA RBE2 and the "discret" RCS of the Rafale . It also shows that MICA is a very good dogfighting missile and does its job and it also shows that Rafale is more manoeuvrable than the F-16 Blk52 (which is the best dogfighther that the USAF has) . I dare to say that if SPECTRA was used to its full extent (active jamming), the result would have been 6-0 . Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       8/6/2008 10:54:12 AM
Well , I might even stop to post on SP since I 'm such a ignorant troll , a bigot , a antisemite and God knows what else ...
 
Verdun , it 's part of the US general mind to go pear shape when they' re not not the best at one given thing . Some see it as a quality , others not . Do we French go pear shape because we don 't have the best Aircraft (F-22) or because we didn 't put a man on the moon or because our flag has no stars on it ?
 
Myself , I 'm very please to see that we have good pilots flying the best 4.5 generation aircraft , that 's all . But by saying such thing , I do get harsh stick and insulted ... What are the other contenders for the best 4.5 generation aircraft operational today ?
In no order :
1) The latest Super Hornet
2) The latest Gripen
 
Let 's have a vote ...
 
Cheers .

 
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Softwar    Super Bug   8/6/2008 11:09:31 AM

Well , I might even stop to post on SP since I 'm such a ignorant troll , a bigot , a antisemite and God knows what else ...

 

Verdun , it 's part of the US general mind to go pear shape when they' re not not the best at one given thing . Some see it as a quality , others not . Do we French go pear shape because we don 't have the best Aircraft (F-22) or because we didn 't put a man on the moon or because our flag has no stars on it ?

 

Myself , I 'm very please to see that we have good pilots flying the best 4.5 generation aircraft , that 's all . But by saying such thing , I do get harsh stick and insulted ... What are the other contenders for the best 4.5 generation aircraft operational today ?


In no order :

1) The latest Super Hornet

2) The latest Gripen


 

Let 's have a vote ...


 

Cheers .





Super Bug hands down - AESA radar operational and in active service.  Combat proven capabilties.
 
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violentnuke       8/6/2008 2:39:21 PM
Bear , in a dogfight the Falcon is far superior to the SH . The SH is not a good dogfighter and will never be . I bet that An old M2000-C or Super Etendard would kill it every time .
 
Super Etendard? I don't think so.
 
The SH is better than the F16 in those subsonic dogfight. It was specificaly designed for low speed maneuverability of the like. It can achieve, I believe, AOAs of 60 degrees and has special maneuver handling software allowing it to "pirouette" in such domains in full control that rival thrust vectoring capabilities of other Ruski fighters. It has a higher AOA/Supermaneuverability than the Rafale because instead of the limited canard's lift (so as to have the Canard winglets stall before the wing), it can use the tail as lifter and let the wing ahead do the full range of the work - something that Canards cannot do with an underused wing. Check the Boeing site or older Aviation Week issues on the matter. The Super Bug is the most dangerous non-thrust vectoring dogfighter out there.
 
In a more general scenario, the SH's top speed of Mach 1.6 is a problem against the Rafale's greater speed. It also has some issues of speed and nimbleness against high roll rate aircrafts like the Rafale or the Mig 29, but nothing too problematic.
 
And this Air to Air encounter of French government propaganda news channel was only the first day. It's like calling out a boxing match after only round 1. It hardly tells the whole story and what was going on.
 
Maybe the French made them sweat, maybe the American pilots were testing them in pugilist fashion, fishing a bit. This is far too one sided of a story line.
 
Aside from that, I congratulate the French pilots, because those Red Team pilots of Red Flag are the best in the world.
 
 
 
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Verdun reply   8/6/2008 2:49:36 PM
 
Please don't take any comments of mine as France bashing. I have the greatest respect for the sons and daughters of Lafayette. I would never say that French are bad as a people.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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violentnuke       8/6/2008 2:52:44 PM
 
This site has reprinted the article on how easy it is to fly the super bug at high AOA without any roughness or worry at all.
 
It talks about the pirouette too.
 
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RockyMTNClimber    bluing reply   8/6/2008 2:53:58 PM
it 's part of the US general mind to go pear shape when they' re not not the best at one given thing . <bluing
 
I expect an apology for the statement above, or do you wish to continue this conversation further? We certainly could have an in depth conversation about the "US general mind" as it relates to France. Our history together is quite deep and any review of it would demonstrate the US has nothing to prove to you personally.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
 
 
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violentnuke       8/6/2008 2:57:02 PM
type super hornet pirouette on google and you get plenty of info
 
This OZ site http://www.ausairpower.net/SuperBug.html has the same article.
 
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violentnuke       8/6/2008 3:36:31 PM
Ahem....

That super bug will eat your frenchies for a "quatre heure"... :) Note that unlimited AOA capability for the SH is a repeated claim/confirm by the Boeing site. The following is from the fas site, written by a Navy pilot.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/990414-ART-Super-Hornet.htm

Myth #3
? "Then, bigger means less maneuverable." Fact ? "In the subsonic regime, the E/F performs as good as or better than a C/D in almost every respect." The challenge posed to the contractor was not to compromise the Hornet?s superb capabilities as a dogfighter. "As good as, or better than..." was the standard to meet. The result is that the turning performance charts overlay one another. At high angles of attack, the E/F?s agility truly shines, with superior roll performance and much more carefree handling.

The heritage Hornet was already the stand-out, high angle-of-attack (alpha) machine in the U.S. inventory. The E/F is "hands-down" superior in that environment. As of the end of July, the test program had completed the high-alpha and spin programs on the E-models for all symmetric loads, and on the F-model for fighter and centerline loadings. Lateral asymmetries and F-model stores testing are in progress.

There will be no angle-of-attack restrictions for the symmetrically loaded E or F models. Spin characteristics are benign, with a simplified recovery compared with that of the C/D, and no sustained falling-leaf departure exists in any stores loading tested.

My last flight in the E/F was in aircraft E4, loaded with three 480-gallon tanks and 4 Mk 83 bombs, and with the center of gravity ballasted to the aft limit of 31.8 percent. In that configuration, the airplane maneuvered without restriction from -30 to +50 degrees AOA, performed zero airspeed tailslides and spins to 120 degrees per second of yaw rate, and unsuccessfully attempted to generate a stable falling-leaf departure. We?ve engineered out all the known departure modes for rolls up to 360 degrees.

The air combat maneuvering (ACM) flights have revealed that the airplane may still be maneuvered at speeds as low as 80 KCAS. This airplane will be quite comfortable in any type of a "phone booth" close-in dogfight.

Agility, however, should really be considered in terms of the lethality of the complete weapons system. While thrust vectoring is maturing at a pace that might have allowed incorporation into the E/F, the weight and complexity penalties were prohibitive. Instead, adding the Helmet-Mounted Cueing System (HMCS) and a highly maneuverable off-boresight missile (AIM-9X) generates E/F total-system lethality that exceeds that available from a much more agile airplane with current missiles. HMCS and AIM-9X will enter the Fleet in 2001 and 2002, respectively.
 
----
 
 
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violentnuke       8/6/2008 3:38:17 PM
 
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violentnuke       8/6/2008 3:40:25 PM
OK, I give up
 
ht*p://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/990414-ART-Super-Hornet.htm
 
ht*p://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-18.htm
 
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