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Subject: Rafale F2 vs F-16 Blk52 , 6-2 on the 1st day
Bluewings12    8/2/2008 6:54:12 PM
Recently , the USAF invited some Rafale F2s to do some advanced dogfighting against some F-16s Blk 52 . It was a one v one confrontation repeated multiple times . The drill did last 3 days . The French and the Americans pilots had to find each other in a big portion of sky (100x100 km/square), then close in and go dogfighting . The French Airforce only released the results of the first day : 6-2 in favor of the Rafale . It has been on the French news on the main TV channel TF1 . Video : h*tp://videos.tf1.fr/video/news/0,,3931177,00-contre-rafale-vrai-faux-combat-.html Quick translation of the video (the good bits): French pilot : " we 're going to separate in the zone and then try to find each other , one Rafale and one F-16 , then go do WVR . We feel that the USAF is very curious about the Rafale and we think that they know what they are up against , so I think that we 're going to bluff them " Second French Pilot talk : " It went well , the F-16s were very cool to fight against and we managed to shootdown them from time to time , it was good " Commentator : "The Americans admit that they have been impressed by the French fighter " The USAF pilot : " The Rafale is an aircraft with unique capabilities which can be flown in a very aggressive manner , more than the F-16 . But you know , the most important is the capabilities of the pilot (!)" ***************** I think that sums up a lot , BUT I remind you that the Rafale pilots are not allowed to use active jamming during drills with Allies (SPECTRA and OSF have only been used to find the opponent). It also shows that the APG-68(v9) radar (with a quoted range of 300km )doesn 't give an adge to the Falcon against the PESA RBE2 and the "discret" RCS of the Rafale . It also shows that MICA is a very good dogfighting missile and does its job and it also shows that Rafale is more manoeuvrable than the F-16 Blk52 (which is the best dogfighther that the USAF has) . I dare to say that if SPECTRA was used to its full extent (active jamming), the result would have been 6-0 . Cheers .
 
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The Lizard King    LOL   8/4/2008 6:49:36 AM
Dog-fighting - how very European...
 
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Wicked Chinchilla       8/4/2008 8:00:16 AM
Dear God,
 
Is it truly necessary to have to explain the concept, and realities of DACT training every damn time there is an exercise between foreign airforces?  Seriously?  Exercises all have designed outcomes.  Unless we know every facet, detail, and minuscule thing there is to know about an exercise we can draw no conclusion from it.  NONE.  Why do the usual fanboy idiots come in here parroting out results like soccer scores every bloody exercise when you dont even know what game they were playing?
 
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Bluewings12       8/4/2008 8:16:14 AM
It is not because I did get one fact wrong (confusing the 308th with the 309th) that I 'm a troll . I sincerely believed that the 309th was flying the Blk 42 , I stand corrected .
 
To my defense , the AdA press release speak of Rafale training against 3 different Block : 25 , 40 and 50 .
So , against which Block Rafale did score 6-2 ? I would like to know .
I knew that the 56th Fighter Wing at Luke were using at least 4 different Block (or is it 5 ?) , but I am not American and a mistake is always possible . I made one and I am sorry , but it 's no use to say that I 'm trolling because I 'm not .
 
Anyway , the French Pilots from the 1/7 "Provence" are only flying the Rafale since tuesday June the 27th 2006 ,  just to say that they don 't have yet a lot of flying hours and scoring a 3 to 1 ratio against the 56th FW is to be accounted for . I 'm pretty sure that they will do better in a couple of years .
 
Phaid , when you say that the USAF did NOT want to evaluate the Rafale F2 , I believe that you 're wrong . At the contrary , my guess is that they 're very interested and glad to train against .
 
Rocky :
""Your froggies have to fly exactly where to get this quality of training?""
Wherever they can . Remember that the French pilots always fare well wherever they go . We went to Red Flag before , we also participate at almost every NATO training and we usually dominate the Tiger Meet . Let me remind you that we DO train with whoever is willing .
 
""The time has long past when your trolling America-Phobic bigotry should be allowed here""
It is your attitude , you Americans , to think that you 're the best at everything when you 're not who 's pushing me to some harsh talk . Show a bit more modesty and my tone will change .
 
""Piss off little bugger.""
As long as the SP people will allow me to post here , I 'm gonna stay around .
 
Claymore , yes the AASM-2 missile is a bit more expensive that the LGBs (not by much) but it has a metric precision and it is a true all weather weapon . DA talks about the JDAM , but it is an inferior weapon when compared to the AASM-2 .
Google it and see the differences by yourselves .
 
DA :
""Do you realize what would happen in the USAF F-15 or F-22, our premier a2a platforms went to some war and scored 3 to 1? People would be crucified!""
 
Your Eagles would have a hard time to make a 1 to 1 ratio against M2000-5s , Rafales , Typhoons , Gripens and latest SUs . The F-22 rules the sky and is the King of A2A , here I agree .
 
Bear , in a dogfight the Falcon is far superior to the SH . The SH is not a good dogfighter and will never be . I bet that An old M2000-C or Super Etendard would kill it every time .
 
gf0012 , it 's not me who said "6-2" , it the French Pilots themselves . I know what DACT is about ...
 
Cheers .
 
 



 
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DropBear       8/4/2008 10:23:48 AM
Bear , in a dogfight the Falcon is far superior to the SH . The SH is not a good dogfighter and will never be . I bet that An old M2000-C or Super Etendard would kill it every time .

Can't say I am convinced. I have read some detailed accounts of the SH's superlative agility at low speeds and in some respects within certain parts of the envelope, it has marginal advantages over an F-18C. The classic Bug in its own right has very good handling and seems to equite itself rather well in many encounters with said F-16 too.
 
Call me stubborn but I fail to see any glaring evidence that relegates the SH to that of a poor performer in said scenario.
 
The early flight testing of the F-18 showed the GE 404 to have impressive slam throttle timed responses and the commentary seemed to suggest that pointing the nose of the Bug onto its prey in A2A flights was a high point that was praised at the time.
 
I don't think the newer relaxed flight software on the SH would make it any less tardy in this regard either.
 
Just glad you didn't mention that other Dassault product in your response.
 
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DarthAmerica       8/4/2008 12:25:53 PM

Claymore , yes the AASM-2 missile is a bit more expensive that the LGBs (not by much) but it has a metric precision and it is a true all weather weapon . DA talks about the JDAM , but it is an inferior weapon when compared to the AASM-2 .

Google it and see the differences by yourselves .

DA :
""Do you realize what would
happen in the USAF F-15 or F-22, our premier a2a platforms went to some
war and scored 3 to 1? People would be crucified!""

Your Eagles would have a hard time to make a 1 to 1 ratio against M2000-5s , Rafales , Typhoons , Gripens and latest SUs . The F-22 rules the sky and is the King of A2A , here I agree .
 
This is why you are thought of as an idiot. How many times does this have to be discussed over and over with you. So Francocentric that you can't make one post that doesn't wave the tri-color as somehow superior to something else. Again, I won't waste my time providing an analysis that utterly dispels the Bull$hit in your quote above. The fact that you even responded that way after all the others chose to respond with "advice" for you clearly shows intelligent discussion with you is not possible. Get lost and grow up...
 
 
 
-DA

 
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displacedjim       8/4/2008 1:02:32 PM
Whoops!  Thanks to the ever-outstanding research by Phaid, it looks like I spoke too soon:  the FAF might not be all set for Singapore and the UAE, since they have Block 60 F-16s built in the 2000's.  But maybe you're at least good-to-go against the old F-16s over in Egypt and Greece.  It's just as well, since they're closer to home and border on the same sea anyway.  Knock 'em dead, tiger!
 
I for one am glad they can win in dogfights with F-16s of any Block.  I'm glad to see all those francs weren't completely wasted and France has some world-class fighters.  I'm always glad to see our allies keeping one step ahead of our enemies.
 
 
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RockyMTNClimber    bluing reply   8/4/2008 1:52:13 PM
Rocky :
""Your froggies have to fly exactly where to get this quality of training?""
Wherever they can . Remember that the French pilots always fare well wherever they go . We went to Red Flag before , we also participate at almost every NATO training and we usually dominate the Tiger Meet . Let me remind you that we DO train with whoever is willing .
 
bluing you have been demonstrated an absolute idiot for the positions you have taken establishing and continuing this thread. The French Embassy to the United State's web site explains the Luke "excersize" as a "systems interoperability" prelude to Red Flag. This is a polite-politic way of saying; it has not one fracking thing to do with USAF evalulations of the mediocre Rafale but it is absolutely imperative to have the French pilots evaluated. You don't just skip accross the pond and tangle in the desert you fracking blufoon! The training involved isn't a soccer match either. Training in preparation for Red Flag is required because the airspace your pilots will work in when the program finally starts is a complex system that interacts with airspace above below and in every dimension possible. In the US we don't just shut down civilian flight operations for military excercizes and the Nevada, Arizona, California desert is a very busy place for civilian aviation!Your inexperienced pilots have to prove themselves capable of working in this evnironment. To the extent they are successful in their interoperability reviews at Luke they will get to play in the big game. Luke is a Training Wing!!!!! Idiot! They teach new US pilots to fly F16s! Moron!
 
It is your attitude , you Americans to some harsh talk . Show a, to think that you 're the best at everything when you 're not who 's pushing me.....<bluing the absolute fracking idiot

Your approach to discussions here deserve no respect what-so-ever. You invented a comparison with your fracking overatede aircraft against an airplane that the Luke field does not own or operate, or for purposes that the USAF don't charter! When this is pointed outt to you you become an indignint child, or, as I now have named you: little bugger!

As long as the SP people will allow me to post here , I 'm gonna stay around .
 
You don't belong here and my vote is to remove your participation. You have demonstrated yourself a bigot against: Americans, Jews, Arabs and only God knows how many others here, on any number of occasions which I will be happy to reproduce here from the record if you continue this thread.
 
Your choice knuckle-head.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
 
 
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Claymore       8/4/2008 6:03:53 PM
These have to be the stupidest comments EVER.
 
Your Eagles would have a hard time to make a 1 to 1 ratio against M2000-5s , Rafales , Typhoons , Gripens and latest SUs . The F-22 rules the sky and is the King of A2A , here I agree .


 

Bear , in a dogfight the Falcon is far superior to the SH . The SH is not a good dogfighter and will never be . I bet that An old M2000-C or Super Etendard would kill it every time .
 
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Nichevo    While not a Christian, BW,   8/4/2008 6:09:39 PM
I will endeavor to offer some.  As you are a self-declared FFL, sniper and other "le SF" veteran, and some sort of tank cognoscento to boot, but an admitted aerospace neophyte unlike FS was or claimed to be, I will try to explain to you what I believe DACT has to offer.  Let us all presume that whether the Rafale went against 30-, 20- or 10-year-old aircraft types, she did indeed score 6-2.  Now let us look at how and why.
 
In DACT as opposed to the free flight you seem to think they engaged in, I believe (and someone like DJ or gf or Herald could put me straight, of course), the aircraft execute preplanned scenarios.  This is not two A-4 pilots rendezvousing out at the spot of bush in the middle of the desert and engaging in some mock hassling to settle a beer bet a la The Right Stuff. 
 
This is, "We used to teach that when the hostile Mirage makes an Immelman, his flight envelope makes him slow down here and that's where you get him, but keep your AoA between X and Y or you'll exceed your flight envelope and he'll wax you.  Now let's try that with the Rafale and see what happens."  Since the Rafale no doubt flies better and/or differently than the Mirage, maybe that near-stall doesn't happen, or happens later, and you have to modify the maneuver or get to develop something new.  It may have taken them six tries to get it down, or they may have tried six things.  They may have tried it on you, you may have tried it on them.
 
So you have succeeded at SOMETHING six times in a competitive school.  Congratulations!  That's very good.
 
Probably if you'd done a little better, with either pilots or planes, who knows, you could have gone 8-0.
 
We'll see more later maybe.  The pilots you quote are more seemly in their modesty than you are.  I recommend to you their example.
 
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Nichevo       8/4/2008 7:08:01 PM
that is, "offer some Christian charity."
 
Keep in mind that DACT also constrains fighter's flight envelopes, too.  If you are simulating a Sukhoi that can pull only 7g, your winning a dogfight by pulling a 9g maneuver is not helpful to learn from.  If you're testing rear-aspect target acquisition, stop trying to turn away.
 
Or to put it more simply:  do you play catch in France?  Just throwing a ball back and forth?  Well, when you play catch, the point is to throw to someone skillfully, so that it is convenient to them to catch it.  Throwing it so the person has to work hard to leap for it or run after it makes you look worse than the guy you are messing with.  I had a very good friend to whom I had to explain this repeatedly.

 
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