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Subject: Is US were right to develop F22 and F35?
french stratege    2/11/2007 3:52:45 PM
I think that US did a mistake by developping both of them. F22 is overspecified vs any threat and quite expensive F35 is too light Making two programs means double R&D cost.40 B$ in R&D is equivalent to 300 F22. Should US should have make an intermediate fighter between F22 and F35? I mean a twin engine about 2*10/11 tons trust with stealthiness and supercruise of F22 (but with a reduced supercruise speed to mach 1,4) and polyvalent as F35 with bigger internal bays able to handle 2 AM9x more in a second bay like F22 OR two more AMRAAM . US tried to replicate F15/F16 combination. In the sixties US relied on F4 for all services: a medium/heavy polyvalent fighter. What is your thinking about that?
 
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Herald1234    Apples and Oranges............again.   2/14/2007 4:14:04 PM

Well, I knew you would bring this on.

HH-65 for CG. But USCG does not have special the favor of the Pentagon.

[Look at who handles port security for the United States in time of war or when the US is inn combat as it is now. The US Coast Guard has a clearly defined WAR MISSION]

h*tp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missions_of_the_United_States_Coast_Guard

Now, the only complain from HH-65 pilots are underpowered engines.

At the same times, those are the only to fly Garrets engines!

I can't say that US procurement decisions are the best. Nor will I.

Now, I didn't say Rafale has technologies that F-35 doesn't have.

[You implied that the Rafale uses the same kind of technical solutions to the specific problems that the F-35  solves for the US. Did I misunderstand this?]

But I fail to see what F-35n has over the Rafale IMHO, for more expensive!

[Let me see if I can help you. What the F-35 brings for the money we spend
a. 100% L/O aeroshell in the frontal aspect at least.
b. Integrated avionics/software suite that allows it to use most of the US[90%] and at least 70% of the allied A2A and A2G line item inventory including many French munitions. Rafale's software package and the avionics is restricted to French and some british weapons. Most American weapons, aside from ironbombs, the Rafale lacks the sourcecode and integration to handle. Can the Rafale fire HARPOON for example?
c. Better jet engine; the GE/RR F-136[designed for the F-35 specifically] is far superior to the SNECMA M-88, in that it has a longer service lifespan in hours before scrapping, has equivalent fuel consumption rates, and simply out accelerates that fine French engine. No surprise here, since the F-136 is a brand new 6th generation jet engine, while the M-88 is a fourth generation decade old design.
d. POWER. The F-35 will be fitted with a DEW, either a MASER, or an AESA radar that will output about 2x what a Rafale ever will. The Rafale does not bring that growth option to the future.
e. VTOL. No way does the Rafale bring this to the table. As of today there are only three nations that could design a VTOL attack aircraft variant out of the national strike fighter basic model. France is not one of them.    
f.  Now there is a tradeoff. The Rafale is a better dogfighter in the WVR. fight. Given the right conditions when the F-35 comes into service the Rafale promises to be a close match in the BVR, if the Rafale receives all of its planned upgrades, and if the Rafale has advanced AWACs support.

I want to understand, as much of the NEW techs use are issued from F-2 and consequently F-22 programs!
[The F-22 L/O aeroshell is a bit more maintenance intensive as it was 1990s third generation technology. The F-35 is DIFFERENT. Its L/O aeroshell is designed to be far more user friendly] That thing was designed to operate off an aircraft carrier in one of its variants. That drove the need for different L/O solutions to the F-35. Don't assume it is an F-22 strike fighter clone. It isn't. 
So it should be very very cheap.
[Comparatively speaking, given all of the above items listed-especially the almost universal bombtruck software integration that goes into it, it will be.]
 
Aust now has no choice but buy the F-35 now. To replace the Aardvarks? I don't see it either.
[Why not? With SH buddytanker support, the F-35 has 5x the F-111s survival chance, can use far more different types of ordnance and adjusted for inflation delivers  2x the same assured target destruction at 1/2 the unit cost.]
But I am French and stupid (to paraphrase the DA), so I would be happy to hear your points (not DA's, lots like him on PakDef forum).

[You asked valid questions and I gave you valid answers.]

[One last comment; the people who question why the Australians  bought  Super Hornets don't see that the SH brings the buddytanker/EW/ECM support assets to the F-35 fighters/strikers in an RAAF strike package. I never saw the F-18E/Fs principally as "fighters" in the Australian airpower scheme. That is because the Australians knew, like the USN that had the SH designed the way it was, that the Super Hornet was designed as much as a specialist support aircraft platform as much as a BVR fleet defense/strike aircraft. That explains the SH's tremendous LIFT and POWER at the expense of its maximum dash speed and some of its maneuverability.]

The F-35 will be the new strike fighter with formidable BVR capability thrown in. The SH in the mix eventually will be more
 
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Herald1234    Cleaned up the syntax because of the unclear language.    2/14/2007 5:16:30 PM
Well, I knew you would bring this on.

HH-65 for CG. But USCG does not have special the favor of the Pentagon.

[Look at who handles port security for the United States in time of war or when the US is inn combat as it is now. The US Coast Guard has a clearly defined WAR MISSION.

h*tp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missions_of_the_United_States_Coast_Guard   ]

Now, the only complain from HH-65 pilots are underpowered engines.

At the same times, those are the only to fly Garrets engines!

[I can't say that US procurement decisions are the best. Nor will I. ]

Now, I didn't say Rafale has technologies that F-35 doesn't have.

[You implied that the Rafale uses the same kind of technical solutions to the specific problems that the F-35  solves for the US. Did I misunderstand this?]

But I fail to see what F-35n has over the Rafale IMHO, for more expensive!

[Let me see if I can help you. What the F-35 brings for the money we spend
a. 100% L/O aeroshell in the frontal aspect at least.
b. Integrated avionics/software suite that allows it to use most of the US[90%] and at least 70% of the allied A2A and A2G line item inventory including many French munitions. Rafale's software package and the avionics is restricted to French and some british weapons. Most American weapons, aside from ironbombs, the Rafale lacks the sourcecode and integration to handle. Can the Rafale fire HARPOON for example?
c. Better jet engine; the GE/RR F-136[designed for the F-35 specifically] is far superior to the SNECMA M-88, in that it has a longer service lifespan in hours before scrapping, has equivalent fuel consumption rates, and simply out accelerates that fine French engine. No surprise here, since the F-136 is a brand new 6th generation jet engine, while the M-88 is a fourth generation decade old design.
d. ELECTRICAL POWER. The F-35 will be fitted with a DEW, either a MASER, or an AESA radar that will output about 2x what a Rafale with AESA radar ever will. The Rafale does not bring that electrical power and EW growth option to its future.
e. VTOL. No way does the Rafale bring this to the table. As of today there are only three nations that could design a VTOL attack aircraft variant out of the national strike fighter basic model. France is not one of them.    
f.  Now there is an aerodynamics tradeoff. The Rafale is a better dogfighter in the WVR. fight. Given the right conditions when the F-35 comes into service the Rafale promises to even be a close match in the BVR, if the Rafale receives all of its planned upgrades, and if the Rafale has advanced AWACs support.]

I want to understand, as much of the NEW techs use are issued from F-2 and consequently F-22 programs!
[The F-22 L/O aeroshell is a bit more maintenance intensive as it was 1990s third generation technology. The F-35 is DIFFERENT. Its L/O aeroshell is designed to be far more user friendly] That thing was designed to operate off an aircraft carrier in one of its variants. That drove the need for different L/O solutions to the F-35. Don't assume it is an F-22 strike fighter clone. It isn't.]

So it should be very very cheap.
[Comparatively speaking, given all of the above items listed-especially the almost universal bombtruck software integration that goes into it, it will be.]
 
Aust now has no choice but buy the F-35 now. To replace the Aardvarks? I don't see it either.
[Why not? With SH buddytanker and EW support, the F-35 has 5x the F-111s survival chance, can use far more different types of ordnance, and adjusted  per unit procurement cost for inflation delivers  2x the same assured target destruction per unit at 1/2 the unit purchase cost.]

But I am French and stupid (to paraphrase the DA), so I would be happy to hear your points (no
 
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Francois    Herald   2/14/2007 9:37:20 PM
You know? At least we can talk.
First, I want you to get that I became provocative because I am tired of "DA and the like"'s arrogance.
And this board is just full of that, hence almost empty.
 
I challenge you to find a post from me where I say such French platform is best in the world.
What I complain the most is that people here take US economico-inditrial and politcal stance for THE model, and every other country has to fit that mold, otherwise they are not worth talking about.
Well, unfortunatly, I am not 20 years old like DA, and I am not 30s either.
 
I read what you worte, and this is very informative indeed.
Engines are continuous developments, as all other systems.
Of course the F-35 will have few advantages, but I am scared, as I see it from my own experience, that Lockheed Martin  is designing a new Super Hornet II.
 
Finally, 99.9% of comparison threads are statrted by ppl like DA, not by French posters.
Here is one reason I think that the US of A are losing their "democratic" status, by alianating others visions.
 
Having an outside vision is also an eye opening.
I can criticize many systems, because I have the experience of others also.
 
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Bluewings12       2/14/2007 10:17:38 PM
Talking about Fascist Regime ...
God help them .

Cheers .

 
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Herald1234    Francois reply   2/15/2007 12:04:50 AM

 

You know? At least we can talk.

 

There is no point in me bringing my American nationalism to a technical discussion and beat my chest. Tarzan fashion when the point of the discussion, is to learn from each other. As for French nationalism, so what should I fear from it? has much of which to be proud and I expect Frenchmen to express it in their writing. It is normal. I have great pride in my American nation’s accomplishments and I so express it. Why should I deny others their natural pride in their own unique national accomplishments?  

 

First, I want you to get that I became provocative because I am tired of "DA and the like's arrogance.

And this board is just full of that, hence almost empty.

 

I can’t speak for others, but as for myself, I TRY to be objective.

 

I challenge you to find a post from me where I say such French platform is best in the world.

What I complain the most is that people here take economic-industrial

and political stance for THE model, and every other country has to fit that mold, otherwise they are not worth talking about.

Well, unfortunately, I am not 20 years old like DA, and I am not 30s either.

 

The only thing that I ask from another poster is that they do not apply a preconceived stereotype to Americans. By the same reason, I expect that they demand the same from me.

 

I read what you wrote, and this is very informative indeed.

Engines are continuous developments, as all other systems.

Of course the F-35 will have few advantages, but I am scared, as I see it from my own experience, that Lockheed Martin  is designing a new Super Hornet II.

 

This interests me. I would be interested in reading why you believe this? The actual SH was a deliberate US Navy lie foisted to sneak into the Navy inventory a single replacement aircraft that could operate as a common mission platform. Congress would fund a replacement for an F-14 if it the SH was sold as cheap replacement for the Tomcat. It, Congress, would not fund a replacement carrier-based tanker, electronic warfare aircraft, or bomber. So McDD was told to take Hornet and modify to increase range and adapt it so that it could electrically support future EW upgrades. The outcome looks like a bigger Hornet, but the outcome was a virtually new aircraft. The SH has totally different flying characteristics from the Hornet. This has happened before. As a Frenchman you should be well aware of it. That was the bombtruck version of the F-8

Crusader;

 

H*tp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-8_Crusader

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-8_Crusader

 

the A-7 Corsair II

 

H*tp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-7_Corsair_II

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-7_Corsair_II

 

. Of course the Navy didn’t lie to Congress about the Corsair II. There was no political need, since the politicians of the day understood the mission need, and what the A-7 would bring to the force mix the USN deployed.

 

Not so today. How could the USN get replacements for Intruders, Vikings, and Prowlers?

 

The current crop of American politicians have no clue. Thus your Navy air combat tacticians go to McDonnell and tell them to produce a mission support aircraft that they can sell to Congress as an “upgrade” to the popularly reported as range deficient F-18A Hornet.

 

McDonnell built into that redesigned “looks like a larger Hornet so it must be a Super

Hornet” entirely DIFFERENT aircraft. The Super Hornet’s actual parameters as a mission support aircraft I’ve already described. Here I just gave you some of the political and technical history. I think it speaks volumes about American political/military

Incompetence, that we have to hide our true aircraft technology from our own domestic politicians; just to get the capabilities we need, wouldn’t you agree? I’ve read nothing Published in the proceedings of the French National Assembly that comes even close to the total ineptitude that our politicians demonstrate when it comes to understanding military procurement. Even the fighting over the Charles de Gaulle was argued on the perceived merits of the carrier as opposed to the “we need the Super Hornet because

 
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Herald1234    Follow up. Voting rights.   2/15/2007 12:27:44 AM
In America pardoned murderers, extortionists,  those guilty of  gun crimes,  kidnappers, racketeers, gangsters, and traitors lose their citizenship rights forever generally across the nation at the Federal level. That doesn't hold true from state to state though.

There are many superficial DELIBERATE distortions and LIES in that article above. Either that or it shows a shocking ignorance in the way US Federal and State law works. For example, a murderer in the state of Indiana automatically loses his right to vote in that state upon his conviction forever. If he moves to Florida and lives there a year he can vote as a state resident in a state election.

That is what is bizarre about American law. You have to see it to believe it!

Herald  
 
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Herald1234    Repost of a bungled cut and paste.   2/15/2007 12:48:29 AM

 

You know? At least we can talk.

 

There is no point in me bringing my American nationalism to a technical discussion and beat my chest. Tarzan fashion when the point of the discussion, is to learn from each other. As for French nationalism, so what should I fear from it? has much of which to be proud and I expect Frenchmen to express it in their writing. It is normal. I have great pride in my American nation’s accomplishments and I so express it. Why should I deny others their natural pride in their own unique national accomplishments?  

 

First, I want you to get that I became provocative because I am tired of "DA and the like's arrogance.

And this board is just full of that, hence almost empty.

 

I can’t speak for others, but as for myself, I TRY to be objective.

 

I challenge you to find a post from me where I say such French platform is best in the world.

What I complain the most is that people here take economic-industrial

and political stance for THE model, and every other country has to fit that mold, otherwise they are not worth talking about.

Well, unfortunately, I am not 20 years old like DA, and I am not 30s either.

 

The only thing that I ask from another poster is that they do not apply a preconceived stereotype to Americans. By the same reason, I expect that they demand the same from me.

 

I read what you wrote, and this is very informative indeed.

Engines are continuous developments, as all other systems.

Of course the F-35 will have few advantages, but I am scared, as I see it from my own experience, that Lockheed Martin  is designing a new Super Hornet II.

 

This interests me. I would be interested in reading why you believe this? The actual SH was a deliberate US Navy lie foisted to sneak into the Navy inventory a single replacement aircraft that could operate as a common mission platform. Congress would fund a replacement for an F-14 if it the SH was sold as cheap replacement for the Tomcat. It, Congress, would not fund a replacement carrier-based tanker, electronic warfare aircraft, or bomber. So McDD was told to take Hornet and modify to increase range and adapt it so that it could electrically support future EW upgrades. The outcome looks like a bigger Hornet, but the outcome was a virtually new aircraft. The SH has totally different flying characteristics from the Hornet. This has happened before. As a Frenchman you should be well aware of it. That was the bombtruck version of the F-8

Crusader;

 

H*tp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-8_Crusader

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-8_Crusader

 

the A-7 Corsair II

 

H*tp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-7_Corsair_II

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-7_Corsair_II

 

. Of course the Navy didn’t lie to Congress about the Corsair II. There was no political need, since the politicians of the day understood the mission need, and what the A-7 would bring to the force mix the USN deployed.

 

Not so today. How could the USN get replacements for Intruders, Vikings, and Prowlers?

 

The current crop of American politicians have no clue. Thus your Navy air combat tacticians go to McDonnell and tell them to produce a mission support aircraft that they can sell to Congress as an “upgrade” to the popularly reported as range deficient F-18A Hornet.

 

McDonnell built into that redesigned “looks like a larger Hornet so it must be a Super

Hornet” entirely DIFFERENT aircraft. The Super Hornet’s actual parameters as a mission support aircraft I’ve already described. Here I just gave you some of the political and technical history. I think it speaks volumes about American political/military

Incompetence, that we have to hide our true aircraft technology from our own domestic politicians; just to get the capabilities we need, wouldn’t you agree? I’ve read nothing Published in the proceedings of the French National Assembly that comes even close to the total ineptitude that our politicians demonstrate when it comes to understanding military procurement. Even the fighting over the Charles de Gaulle was argued on the perceived merits of the carrier as opposed to the “we need the Super Hornet because

 
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sentinel28a       2/15/2007 1:59:56 AM

Really Leroy ?



Well , let 's talk about it , shall we ?

I say that F-35 will do a nice hole in the ground and a lot of smoke from an IR MICA hit .

What say you ?



Cheers .



I say a Rafale will also look kind of funny with an AMRAAM up its ass.  Especially if it was shot by an "old" F-15. 
Yes, it could happen.  Fighter pilots win because they're good, not because their aircraft is better. 
 
I had a feeling sooner or later this thread would turn into a French vs. Everyone Else Dick Waving contest.  Too bad.

 
 
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BadNews       2/15/2007 2:08:04 AM



Really Leroy ?



Well , let 's talk about it , shall we ?

I say that F-35 will do a nice hole in the ground and a lot of smoke from an IR MICA hit .

What say you ?



Cheers .




I say a Rafale will also look kind of funny with an AMRAAM up its ass.  Especially if it was shot by an "old" F-15. 

Yes, it could happen.  Fighter pilots win because they're good, not because their aircraft is better. 

 

I had a feeling sooner or later this thread would turn into a French vs. Everyone Else Dick Waving contest.  Too bad.


 


The Threads Very Topic Should Have Been Our First Clue!

 
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leroy       2/15/2007 7:57:33 AM
"The threads very topic should have been our first clue"
 
What, you mean because it mentioned aircraft?
 
 
 
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