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Subject: Rafale vs Eurofighter - Who Wins?
ugadawg5    7/30/2006 10:30:34 PM
1. BVR 2. WVR 3. Comments
 
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crafty beagle    RE:Rafale vs Eurofighter - Who Wins?   7/31/2006 5:56:54 PM
ugadawg5, I did not mean to appear that I think this is a nonsense thread. I think that an encounter between the two aircraft in combat is possible. If Dassault were to sell the Rafale to a Middle Eastern country (i.e. Syria, Iran) in five years time, it could possibly set up an encounter against a Typhoon of the RAF or another Middle Eastern country that may have purchased one (such as Saudi Arabia). Dassault may not sell any to Iran now, but if Iran backs down for a few years, people may start paying less attention to them in the future. These scenarios may seem impossible, but five years ago today, who would have predicted that American troops would be in both Afghanistan and Iraq. In my uneducated opinion, I believe the Rafale would prevail in most encounters, because I think it does better WVR. If the Rafale pilots can force the issue, I believe they will have a better kill ratio.
 
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MadRat    The real question is if Gripen can take down either one... (nt)   7/31/2006 6:12:40 PM
nt = no text
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:Rafale vs Eurofighter - Who Wins? - AE   7/31/2006 6:14:44 PM
There is much more to it than just range though. I'd say CAPTOR=APG-73(CAPTOR claims a longer range IIRC)=Whatever is in the SU-30 in Air to Air roles. All of these radars exceed the RBE2. Its inferior though when you factor in the multirole missions.
 
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ugadawg5    RE:Rafale vs Eurofighter - Who Wins?   8/1/2006 9:13:09 PM
"It doesn't, though. The Rafale has lost badly in BVR exercises againt both F/A-18Es with APG-73 and against Su-30Ks, both of whose radar range is similar or inferior to the Eurofighter's." Phaid, can you give me the link to the thread or article that reported this information? Thanks.
 
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Phaid    RE:Rafale vs Eurofighter - Who Wins?   8/2/2006 8:43:40 AM
RE:Rafale vs Eurofighter - Who Wins? 8/1/2006 9:13:09 PM "It doesn't, though. The Rafale has lost badly in BVR exercises againt both F/A-18Es with APG-73 and against Su-30Ks, both of whose radar range is similar or inferior to the Eurofighter's." Phaid, can you give me the link to the thread or article that reported this information? Thanks. This has been discussed several times in the French magazine Defense & Securite Internationale as well as in French government publications. The most detailed article, concerning exercises between Super Hornets and Rafales in March of 2005, was in this issue of DSI magazine. I don't think the full text is available on line, but there was a good discussion of it in this thread. The upshot is that the commander of one of the CdG's squadrons says that, compared to the Rafale, the Americans "have better", and that even though the Rafale is better in WVR than the F/A-18, the Rafale is at a disadvantage in BVR and unfortunately BVR is the future of air combat. Then there's this D">this one from DSI no. 15 concerning the Rafale and its poor showing in bvr. Le véritable problème opérationnel du Rafale, notamment à l’égard des éventuels clients à l’export, c’est, aujourd’hui, l’insuffi sance de son système d’armes en matière de combat aérien longue portée. C’est-à-dire au-delà des 60 à 70 km. N’emportant que des missiles air-air MICA à moyenne portée, doté d’un radar RBE2 effi cace mais souffrant d’une « myopie » certaine au regard des compétiteurs américains et russes, le Rafale, lorsqu’il fonctionne de manière autonome, court de sérieux risques de se faire détecter et abattre par l’adversaire avant d’avoir pu lui-même réagir. Les exercices réalisés avec des Su-30 indiens et des F/A-18 américains l’ont démontré. À un tel point que, d’un commun accord, les protagonistes s’entendent, lors de ces exercices, afi n de ne pas irrémédiablement pénaliser les pilotes français, pour limiter la confrontation au volume de détection et de tir du Rafale. My translation: "The Rafale's real operational problem, notably concerning eventual export clients, is today the inadequacy of its weapons system in long range air to air combat. Which is to say, at ranges beyond 60 or 70 kilometers. Carrying only medium-range MICA air to air missiles, and equipped with a RBE2 radar which is effective but which suffers from a "nearsightedness" relative to its American and Russian competitors, the Rafale, when functioning autonomously, runs serious risk of being detected and shot down by its adversary before being able to react. The exercises performed with Indian Su-30s and American F/A-18s have demonstrated this. To such an extent that, in order not to excessively penalize the French pilots during these exercises, all parties agreed to keep these engagements within the detection and firing range of the Rafale." So basically the problem is such that they have to change the ROEs of the exercises so that the Rafales have any chance of competing.
 
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Phaid    Rafale vs BVR, Fixed HTML   8/2/2006 8:49:51 AM
"It doesn't, though. The Rafale has lost badly in BVR exercises againt both F/A-18Es with APG-73 and against Su-30Ks, both of whose radar range is similar or inferior to the Eurofighter's." Phaid, can you give me the link to the thread or article that reported this information? Thanks. This has been discussed several times in the French magazine Defense & Securite Internationale as well as in French government publications. The most detailed article, concerning exercises between Super Hornets and Rafales in March of 2005, was in this issue of DSI magazine. I don't think the full text is available on line, but there was a good discussion of it in this thread. The upshot is that the commander of one of the CdG's squadrons says that, compared to the Rafale, the Americans "have better", and that even though the Rafale is better in WVR than the F/A-18, the Rafale is at a disadvantage in BVR and unfortunately BVR is the future of air combat. Then there's this article one from DSI no. 15 concerning the Rafale and its poor showing in BVR: Le véritable problème opérationnel du Rafale, notamment à l’égard des éventuels clients à l’export, c’est, aujourd’hui, l’insuffi sance de son système d’armes en matière de combat aérien longue portée. C’est-à-dire au-delà des 60 à 70 km. N’emportant que des missiles air-air MICA à moyenne portée, doté d’un radar RBE2 efficace mais souffrant d’une « myopie » certaine au regard des compétiteurs américains et russes, le Rafale, lorsqu’il fonctionne de manière autonome, court de sérieux risques de se faire détecter et abattre par l’adversaire avant d’avoir pu lui-même réagir. Les exercices réalisés avec des Su-30 indiens et des F/A-18 américains l’ont démontré. À un tel point que, d’un commun accord, les protagonistes s’entendent, lors de ces exercices, afi n de ne pas irrémédiablement pénaliser les pilotes français, pour limiter la confrontation au volume de détection et de tir du Rafale. My translation: "The Rafale's real operational problem, notably concerning eventual export clients, is today the inadequacy of its weapons system in long range air to air combat. Which is to say, at ranges beyond 60 or 70 kilometers. Carrying only medium-range MICA air to air missiles, and equipped with a RBE2 radar which is effective but which suffers from a "nearsightedness" relative to its American and Russian competitors, the Rafale, when functioning autonomously, runs serious risk of being detected and shot down by its adversary before being able to react. The exercises performed with Indian Su-30s and American F/A-18s have demonstrated this. To such an extent that, in order not to excessively penalize the French pilots during these exercises, all parties agreed to keep these engagements within the detection and firing range of the Rafale." So basically the problem is such that they have to change the ROEs of the exercises so that the Rafales have any chance of competing.
 
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TDidier    RE:Rafale vs BVR, Fixed HTML   8/4/2006 1:07:42 AM
But those Rafales were on the F1 standard: no SPECTRA, no OSF, no Link16, no MICA IR. With the present F2 standard (Armée de l'Air and the last Marine Rafale), the two real "radars" are now fitted: SPECTRA and OSF, both are capable to detect and track a target and both are able on theyre own to direct a MICA against a threat (both are able to direct a MICA EM as well as IR). And please note that with the Link16, the advantage that the F18 had in May2005 has simply desapared, a Rafale will be able to shoot on another Rafale or awacs informations.
 
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MadRat    RE:Rafale vs BVR, Fixed HTML   8/4/2006 8:38:54 AM
That was cheap during an exercise when a non-participant lit up the sky and fed one of them a nice datastream to target from. The extent some will go to in order to win. ;)
 
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Phaid    RE:Rafale vs BVR, Fixed HTML   8/4/2006 10:20:12 AM
Well, having Link 16 definitely helps. There's no doubt that this represented one of the advantages the USN Hornets had. However, the key point is that these exercises demonstrated very clearly that the Rafale's "reduced radar signature" in no way makes up for the short range of the RBE2, since both the Su-30 and the APG-73 equipped Hornet can detect the Rafale before the Rafale can detect them.
 
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french stratege    rafale F1 is a transitory plane.F2 will be the benchmark.   8/4/2006 10:31:56 AM
rafale F1 is a transitory plane.F2 will be the benchmark: The F1 radar has also former version of signal processor.Almost a prototype.For exemple when we moved from RFY1 to RDY2 by improving single processor , range increased of 20%.Rafale F1 is a transitory plane to fill the gap for navy. Moreover real RCS is masked in exercise. The problem is also the lack of link 16 on Rafale F1 until it is fitted. The range problem is real for F1 especially vs F18E AESA, but it will be solved partially with F2 (improved radar and RCS, OSF, Link16, full spectra...) and more than needed with Rafale AESA radar for 2009/2010. F2 has OSF also : http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/1999/05/05/50879/Tests+begin+on+Rafale+optronics.html With a range said of 70 nM (130 km) OSF will be a very good bonus. At the end I would like to say that DSI push for AESA radar acceleration with bigger funding and is also pessimistic in such an article.I favor also acceleration of AESA and the governement has added 100 m€ per year for the funding. Also DSI is an alternate strategy review (which is good in a sense) and they are far from having top insider information from ministry of defense. Rafale can have and will have udpated systems.On the radar and other stuff. As soon our new MMIC wafer fab for AESA components is completed (in two years). Then we will produce MMIC circuit on a par for performance and PRICE with US best in 2009. As a platform it is still far superior from F18E or SU30 and even superior to EF (at least on RCS).
 
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