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Subject: How will F-35 perform in air-to-air vs. Rafale, Gripen, Typhoon?
ugadawg5    7/10/2006 8:32:37 PM
Obviously the air-to-ground will be a tremendous advantage for the F-35, but how about the air-to-air capabilities? I would think even against the Gripen, a bit behind the Rafale and Typhoon. I'd like BVR and WVR opinions please. Thanks.
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:WVR Combat - USN-MID   8/1/2006 1:45:30 AM
I could get 2 Skyhawks close in on a Flanker, Rhino, or whatever, AND have a heavy fighter driver dumb enough to want to enter a dogfight I'd put my money on the Skyhawks. Well if you are lucky enough to fly the F/A-18F you could shoot both Skyhawks simultaneously since both the Pilot and WSO are able to deploy weapons! http://www.boeing.com/ids/allsystemsgo/issues/vol3/num2/vol3_issue2.pdf Now thats a difference...;)
 
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boris the romanian    RE:WVR Combat - BTR   8/1/2006 1:49:18 AM
Thing is, though, that while the Flanker can turn, he can also out run and out climb most of his opponents. With the internal auxiliary tank depleted, only the F-22 has a superior T/W ratio to Su-30MKI/MKM, and Eagle and Typhoon are roughly equal. The "heavy" Flanker is no lumbering beast. It's like comparing Leopard IA3 and Leopard IIA6 if you want to use a tankalogical example. As for the more affordable types, I'm with you there with the Gripen, but I can't really agree regarding Eurofighter, Rafale, and F-35. Also, multirole wise, MKI/MKM are fairly adept mud-movers and anti-shipping aircraft. A Flanker, in its own way, is every bit as deadly air to ground as a Rafale or Gripen is.
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:WVR Combat - BTR   8/1/2006 1:55:02 AM
Actually the T/W advantage slips to the F-35 as the fuel gets closer to 50%. Check, you will be suprised. Especially since the F-35s unaugmented thrust is close to a pair of unaugmented SU-30 engines. Another thing is Drag coefficient. F-35 doesnt have AAMs, Bombs and Fuel hanging off of pylons sometimes. And cost wie the F-35 is by far cheaper than Eurofighter and Rafale.
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:WVR Combat - All   8/1/2006 2:09:20 AM
See post: http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/6-37952.asp Still wanna risk WVR? I'll pass!
 
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boris the romanian    RE:WVR Combat - BTR   8/1/2006 2:20:34 AM
Ok, you must have different figures than I. Using FAS, I've approximated a laden F-35 to weigh 25,500 pounds with 50% fuel, and having 25,000 pounds of thrust. Ratio is 0.98 Su-30MKI with depleted internal auxiliary tank and 6x R-73s plus 4x R-27s has weight of 21,490kg and thrust of 25,000kg with AL-31FP. Ratio is in the order of 1.13/14. Perhaps you could give me more specific F-35 weights, somehow I'm not too confident with FAS ;-)
 
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boris the romanian    RE:WVR Combat - BTR   8/1/2006 2:28:09 AM
Crap, I seriously botched those F-35 figures! I really need sleep. Trying again, the weight should be 43,000 pounds (more like 40,000 if just air to air) with 37,000 pounds of thrust, for a ratio of 0.86 to 0.93).
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:WVR Combat - BTR   8/1/2006 2:29:37 AM
F-35 has up to 40000lb of thrust on tap! Assuming 25500lbs for weight thats an astonishing T/W of 1.5+ WITH THE BURNER. Even without the F135 is in the 30000lbs class for a T/W of 1.17+ WITHOUT USING THE AFTERBURNER. Again thats assuming the 25500 weight.
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:WVR Combat - BTR   8/1/2006 2:31:18 AM
40,000lbs and 30,000lbs are just low approximates rounded down. The engine is said to be more powerful.
 
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boris the romanian    RE:WVR Combat - BTR   8/1/2006 2:33:48 AM
Sorry, 22,500lb is empty weight. FAS gives fuel load as being 15,000lbs and warload as being 15,000lbs. Halving the fuel load would bring weight in the order of 43,000lbs, though with an air-to-air load-out would be more like 40,000 pounds. T/W ratio is in the region of 1.00. Still less than Flanker.
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:WVR Combat - BTR   8/1/2006 2:44:48 AM
Two things. FAS numbers are wrong. Wrong by small amounts but enough to matter here. F135 is the most powerful fighter engine ever built and it produces more the 40,000lbs. I just used 40,000 as an approximate. Second the F-35 would not necessarily carry its max warload. Configured for air to air the F-35 is well above 1.2 T/W when you account for fuel status. Then there is the issue of drag where the Su-35 loses without question.
 
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