I wasn't arguing about BVR. I jumped on the bandwagon when the Flanker was dismissed as a WVR threat. I think that this is a major inaccuracy. Hey, I reckon a BTR-80 would make a great paddock-basher to drive around the farm ;-) Especially as I've been known to be a somewhat impatient motorist ;-)

I know you arent dismissing BVR. And yes the Flanker is indeed a deadly WVR opponent. I and I suspect others such as AE feel that HOBS Missiles, HMS and advanced defensive systems offset and advantages it would enjoy over fighters without such capabilities. Here is a better analogy. Two men, one a kung fu master and the other a taxi driver. If both men have Glocks and get into a gunfight the kung fu is nice but its not likely to offer any tangible benefit.

lol, unless the kung-fu master and taxi driver accidentally bump into one another. One could be looking around the corner for the other in a narrow alleyway, where LOS is severely restricted. My money then's on the kung-fu master. lol

"Here is a better analogy. Two men, one a kung fu master and the other a taxi driver. If both men have Glocks and get into a gunfight the kung fu is nice but its not likely to offer any tangible benefit." Considering that stealth will give the F-35 a decisive advantage in BVR I think the Kung Fu master should have to use his hands while the taxi driver has the glock.

lol, unless the kung-fu master and taxi driver accidentally bump into one another. One could be looking around the corner for the other in a narrow alleyway, where LOS is severely restricted. My money then's on the kung-fu master. Thats why I said unlikely rather than impossible...;)

I think that glocks are innaccurate. A kung-fu master should have knun-chucks (is that how you spell it?) whereas the taxi-driver should have a crow-bar. Finesse over brute force!

Stealth is like saying the Kung Fu master is deaf and blind.

hey, I thought the Flanker is the brute taxi-driver, or am I wrong? lmao

"WVR is definately a toss of the coin, but a Flanker is a very dangerous opponent in such an environment, and it was implied in this thread that this was not the case." WVR, ignoring the F-86 armed with even AIM-9L/Ms is a bad idea. But we're not considering the F-86 simply b/c it's not in the same class...different generation, different mission, etc. The Flanker isn't in the same "class" as the abovementioned fighters...which I think is where the discussion was trying to go. Rafale, Gripen, Typhoon and JSF are all being marketed as affordable multirole "light" fighters. The Flanker is pretty clearly a heavy air superiority oriented fighter, which is on the higher end of the cost scale for Russian gear, and even more expensive if foreign avionics are added. That said, I'm still of the opinion that overall it's better to be the lightweight guy who's changing his position in the "arena" rather than the guy who's turning tightly trying to keep his nose on his opponent. Hypothetically, B-17s with their great coverage should have been slaughtering German fighters throughout the war. Like I said...human factors. Today things have changed, but I think the basic principles remain. Your aim dot is now the fighter pilot's HMCS crosshair, but that's still limiting you to one target at a time, it'll still take time to acquire a lock presumably, and the human neck can only turn so far, and performs worse when under Gs. If(big if) I could get 2 Skyhawks close in on a Flanker, Rhino, or whatever, AND have a heavy fighter driver dumb enough to want to enter a dogfight I'd put my money on the Skyhawks. And the light fighters are more affordable, so there'd be more of them. And granted, this is why heavy fighters focus on BVR...so this situation does not even need to arise in the first place.

Its a mighty fine brute though!