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Subject: Su-37 vs. F-22
TankFREAK    11/3/2005 5:39:49 PM
Which do you think is better? The F-22 has stealth features (not completely stealth) and the Su-37 has super-maunverability on it's side (front canards+thrust vectoring). No doubt if there was no stealth and it was an actual dog fight, the Su-37 would undoubtly win. But how effective the F-22's stealth is not completely verified. IMO, i would say that the Su-37 'Terminator' is better, as it has supermanuverability (it can perform the world-reknowned kulbit, which is basically doing a somersault within it's own length). If we knew more about how effective the stealth is on the F-22, i might sway my decision, but at least for the time being, i say the Su-37 is better. What's your take on this?
 
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kensohaski       2/20/2008 9:06:00 PM
I can make a paper airplane that is more manuverable than the F-22, so what....
 
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DV8Cowboy    FYI   3/16/2008 11:49:09 AM

A Raptor pilot has said that the radar imprint of the F/A-22 is between that of a sparrow and a bee.
.. 'nuff said.

 
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nyetneinnon    And... Super Hornet for the kill   3/18/2008 2:18:43 AM
I'd think a Super Hornet could win vs the OLD Su-37 prototype, which of course has been reverted back to Su-35 now.
 
Super Hornet's radar alone, I think most experts would agree, is better than yesterday's Su.  Combined with C7 and 9X, is a potent mix. 
 
If one is talking future su radar.. then perhaps it's an even match vs a Super Hornet, regardless of model being Su-30 or 35.
 
But it's better of course to demilitarize really, and to downgrade the whole rhetoric being inflamed by extensive bull crap all around.  Only a leader can stop the escalation of miltarization, rhetoric and proliferation today.
 
Peace.
 
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hollywoodvillain       6/15/2008 3:00:41 PM
Guys lemme set the record straight here. I have several friends in the aerospace industry and know some guys who fly for the U.S. Navy. I can tell you almost for sure that the F-22 will dominate the SU-37 or any of its variants so far in any kind of combat for several reasons.
 
 The main reason why the USAF chose the YF-22 over the YF-23 was because of its superior manueverability. In fact at first, the air-force originally wasn't so concerned about agility in its next-gen fighter as much as it was stealth. However that changed with the collapse of the soviet-union and the relization that future air battles would be fought in very populated environments which would require visual identification, and hence dogfighting (indeed this contributed to the retiremant of the F-14, a fighter designed to carry the long range phoenix missle, which never saw combat due to these circumstances).
 
The F-22 was designed for dogfighting. Anyone thinking that agility had to be comprimised for stealth is incorrect. In the past, stealth airframes had to be constantly modified manually and tested to acheive the best windtunnel/RCS results. Now however, new computer technology and algorithms have allowed designers to create an almost perfect platform before even going to the prototype stage. This is like reducing decades of research and testing to just a few years.
 
So before I explain all the resons why the F-22 will dominate in WVR combat, lemme talk about its BVR combat. While the F-22 does posess a very powerfull radar, it wasn't really designed to use it. The F-22 is to be integrated into an entire defense network, including AWACS reports, as part of its primary mission. Using its radar is a last resort, as it will give away the Raptors position, so its designed to seemlessly incorporate information from other scorces to get a clear battlefield picture. Even in the event of stealth being comprimised, the F-22 posesses supercruise, so it can still fire missles from a longer range because they will leave the aircraft with a higher velocity than conventional fighters. It has already proven this in tests, in fact the USAF even slightly delayed the development of its newest longer range AIM-120 because the F-22 can launch the current model almost as far as the planned upgrade launched with "regular" aircraft.
 
In WVR combat the stakes are hardly fair. The F-22 carries all its weapons internally so the only effect on the airframe is weight. Its sleek profile means that its not affected by aerodymamic drag typical of missles/pylons or other obtrusions, and because its payload is closer to the center of gravity, it can roll faster. In a guns only engaugement, the F-22 possesses superior agility in all but the slowest speed of the fight envelope. This is due to the fact the Raptor has +/-5 degree more thrust vectoring angle capability (+/- 15 degree for the SU-37, +/- 20 for the F-22). This might not seem like much, but it really counts at high sub-sonic speeds. The SU-37 does possess front canards, but these only really take full effect when your down in the weeds, and no self-respecting pilot would let himself be dragged down that slow.
 
In fact the only technology on the SU-37 worth nothing is its backward facing radar. Firing missles behind you would almost make agility irrelevent, however, there is speculation as to how well this system actually works.
 
Also to all those who think the US is behind the russians in thrust vectoring, think again. The USAF already converted all their "standard" fighters into thrust vectoring monsters (F-16 VISTA, F-15 ACTIVE, F-18 HARV) in the mid 80's, and they even developed dedicated thrust vectoring experimental planes (X-31). It wasn't untill 1996 that the first flight of the SU-37 took place, which of course was just a thrust-vectored SU-27/33.
 
And yes, I've seen the videos of both SU-37's and F-22's. And yes, the F-22's seemed very lame compared to the double cobra-pulling, back flipping, almost unbelievable antics pulled by the SU-37 pilots. But consider this, the Russian government's main goal is to export the SU-37 and not really use it for itself, so of course they will show exactly everythig its capable of in hopes of selling it. The US has made it clear that it has no plans of exporting the F-22 in the near future. No footage of any modern US fighter showing its true capabilities has ever been shown to the public becuase of plainly obvious reasons.

 
 
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hollywoodvillain       7/9/2008 8:29:11 PM
excuse me for the mis-conception, I ment to say near the end that "the only thing worth *noting* is the backward facing radar....". I miss spelled noting and spelled it "nothing", which is precisly the opposite of what I was trying to say!
 
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DarthAmerica       7/10/2008 4:55:42 AM


So before I explain all the resons why the F-22 will dominate in WVR combat, lemme talk about its BVR combat. While the F-22 does posess a very powerfull radar, it wasn't really designed to use it. The F-22 is to be integrated into an entire defense network, including AWACS reports, as part of its primary mission. Using its radar is a last resort, as it will give away the Raptors position, so its designed to seemlessly incorporate information from other scorces to get a clear battlefield picture. Even in the event of stealth being comprimised, the F-22 posesses supercruise, so it can still fire missles from a longer range because they will leave the aircraft with a higher velocity than conventional fighters. It has already proven this in tests, in fact the USAF even slightly delayed the development of its newest longer range AIM-120 because the F-22 can launch the current model almost as far as the planned upgrade launched with "regular" aircraft.
 
In WVR combat the stakes are hardly fair. The F-22 carries all its weapons internally so the only effect on the airframe is weight. Its sleek profile means that its not affected by aerodymamic drag typical of missles/pylons or other obtrusions, and because its payload is closer to the center of gravity, it can roll faster. In a guns only engaugement, the F-22 possesses superior agility in all but the slowest speed of the fight envelope. This is due to the fact the Raptor has +/-5 degree more thrust vectoring angle capability (+/- 15 degree for the SU-37, +/- 20 for the F-22). This might not seem like much, but it really counts at high sub-sonic speeds. The SU-37 does possess front canards, but these only really take full effect when your down in the weeds, and no self-respecting pilot would let himself be dragged down that slow.
 

In fact the only technology on the SU-37 worth nothing is its backward facing radar. Firing missles behind you would almost make agility irrelevent, however, there is speculation as to how well this system actually works.

OK, hello all. I've been absent from the more technical boards over the last few weeks for personal reasons. I thought a while about this post before breaking my tech silence and responding. I hope I'm not making a mistake. My comments will focus mainly on the highlighted text. I realize to a lot of you I will be preaching to the chior so bear with me.
 
 1. The F-22's radar is one of it's most powerful assets. It is absolutely designed to use it for a lot of things ranging from traditional search-track-firecontrol, Electronic Attack(including HPM DEW), ISR, IO, Comm Link, ESM sensor ect. As a VLO aircraft, the F-22 can get it's radar into places wide bodied aircraft and legacy fighters can't. Being in that position, the F-22 is going to be more of a provider of the situational awareness rather than pure beneficiary. The power and precision of the AN/APG-77 will allow it to resolve and discriminate targets at ranges other assets can't get to until the F-35 arrives. The Super Hornet and F-15C will also have some of this capability but will be quite a bit more vulnerable for obvious reasons.
 
2. Using radar as a last resort. Active emitters have been exploited as a vulnerability for 60+ years. Like every other aircraft in the sky friend and foe alike. The F-22 will practive EMCON. Nothing new about that. Migs did it hunting F-4s over Viet Nam, F-15C did it hunting for Migs over Bosnia. However, the AN/APG-77 does have LPI capability which means that it is less likely to compromise the user while being used and will not necessarily betray a Raptors precense.
 
3. In WVR combat, the primary benefit of the F-22 is not it's awesome manuverability. In a turning fight the F-22 gives up a lot of it's advantages. The WVR benefit of the Raptor is that it can choose when, where and how to enter a WVR engagement so that it always has the advantage. It can also decline or withdraw from such engagements at will. That is the benefit. Getting into furballs and trying to outmaneuver threat aircraft is just going to get an R-73 gift certificate. It's an outdated form of combat, attrition prone and preferably avoided mostly.
 
4. The Su-37 is not a production aircraft. It's not going to be production anytime soon if at all. Therefore, an aircraft that doesn't exist in threat airforces is by definition not a threat. But I do enjoy the YouTube videos! It's the worlds deadliest aerobatic display aircraft....;0<
 
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warpig       7/27/2009 1:42:25 PM
I couldn't let a funny thread like this go down the hole.
 
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majestikflow    Subject: Su-37 vs. F-22   7/28/2009 12:01:33 AM
the F-22 would win in long distance. The F-22 can lock on from further distance and take out the Su-37. If it came to just there machine guns the Su-37 would win.
 
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Herald12345    E$nergy advantage, radar advantage, and altitude advantage   7/28/2009 12:56:28 AM

the F-22 would win in long distance. The F-22 can lock on from further distance and take out the Su-37. If it came to just there machine guns the Su-37 would win.

It doesn't matter when he's above you and sees you first. You are DEAD. That was true with the Eagle, it is true with the Raptor. Call that the Saber Lesson.
 
Herald.
 
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MK       7/30/2009 4:48:52 PM
I don't know what this discussion is all about, the Su-37 doesn't exist anymore and was never more than a raw technology demonstrator based on the Su-27M/T-10M aka Su-35. The experience gained with that demonstrator was used in the design of the Su-30MKI and other variants. So if there should be any comparison (which seriously isn't necessary) then compare the Su-30MKI and its derivates MKA & MKM. And keep an eye on the new Su-35 (T-10BM).
 
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