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Subject: How to fix the design defects of the Spitfire airplane of WW-II.
Shooter    5/26/2005 5:12:16 PM
Given 20-20 hind sight, It is easy to see where R.M. went wrong with the Spitfire! The following list of items is my idea of how they should have done it, IF THEY HAD READ ANY OF THE COMMON TEXTS instead of designing a newer SPAD for the last war! 1. Start with the late Seafire or even better the Martin Baker MB-5! they have contra props and wide track gear. The MB-5 also has a much higher LOS out of the pit forward. This is also one of the Spits larger problems. 2. Change the shape/planform of the wing and eppinage from eliptical to trapiziodal. The eliptical surfaces caused the construction time and cost of the Spitfire to be more than double that of the Mustang and almost as much as the P-38. 3. Reduce the wing cord and thus area by 35-40%! This reduction in surface aria will increase the cruising speed substantialy! This is probably the single biggest defect in the design. The change in aspect ratio will also help fuel ecconomy! 4. To compensate for the increased landing and take off speeds install triple slotted fowler flaps with a long hinge extension. This gives a huge increase in wing area and changes the camber for supirior "DOG FIGHT" ability, should you ever need it! ( because the pilot really screwed up!) At full extension and deflection, they would reduce the landing speed by 11~13MPH? (Slip Stick calcs!) 5. Remove the wing mounted radiators and install a body duct like the P-51 or MB-5! This one change would add ~35MPH to the plane? 6. use the single stage griphon engine and install a "Turbo-charger" like the P-38 and Most American Bombers had. This would increase power and save weight, both significant contributers to performance. 7. Remove the guns from the wings! This would lower the polar moment of rotation and give the plane snappier rates of roll! It also makes room for "wet wings" with much more fuel. A chronic Spit problem. It also fixes the Spit's gunnery problem of designed in dispersion! 8. Install the Gun(s) in the nose! Either fireing threw the prop boss/hub or on either side 180 degrees either side of the prop CL. This fixes the afore mentioned dispersion problem. One bigger gun between the cilinder banks or upto four 20MMs beside the engine or both, depending on what your mission needs were! 9. Make a new gun based on the American 28MM or 1.1" Naval AA ammo! This shell was particuarly destructive, had a very high MV and BC and was all ready in service. A re-engineered copy of the existing gun to reduce weight and increase RoF is a faily simple task. Pay the Americans for it if British spring technology is not up to the task! it also frees up much needed production capasity for other things. 10. Design a new drawn steel "Mine" shell for the above gun! Spend the money to load it with RDX instead of the TNT used for the first 4/5s of the war. 11. Pay North American or Lockheed to design it for you, since the Supermarine staff was to tied up fixing the origional spitfire design to get it done any time soon. Did I miss anything?
 
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MustangFlyer    RE:Larry - The point   7/14/2006 8:44:43 PM
Mk IX, 85 (UK) gals, plus 35,45,50,90 and 170 gals drop tanks. Late production models with 33 or 41 gal rear fuselge tanks plus 2x18 gal Mareng bags in wings. This gives a max of 162 gals internally (195 US gals) vs 221 UK gals for the P-51D with the 71 gal internal tank (or 73% of the Mustang's capacity).
 
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MustangFlyer    RE:Larry - The point   7/14/2006 11:10:18 PM
I should add that this gave the Spit 67% of the range of Mustang on internal fuel. The less draggy Mustang had a 10% better range for the same power settings, basically because the Mustang cruised at a higher speed for the same power. The endurance for the same fuel was the same for both planes, but the Mustang's range was higher due to the higher speed. However that still changed the Spit from a short range fighter to an effective medium range fighter, because, as I've stated several times before, the fundemental limit on combat range is the fuel remaining for combat and return after drop tanks & (at least) some rear internal tank capacity is burnt off. But an effective combat radius of 400 (probably closer to 500) miles was well within the capacity of late model Spits, even if you require the entire rear tank to be burned off before combat. Simple calculation (note all based on UK gallons): Fuel left at start of combat (drop tanks gone and empty rear tank) 121 gals. Say 50 gals used in combat & escape (about 25 mins at max power) = 71 left. This equals 426 miles at 6 miles per gallon (medium fast cruise, not fastest cruise). Or 475 miles at most economical cruise (230 mph IAS). If less (say 20 gals less) is used for combat or (say) 20 gals are left in the rear tank at the beginning of combat this equals 546/609 miles on the same assumptions. Put a bigger rear tank in (say 75 gals) then the Spit becomes a good long range fighter, still not as good as the Mustang, but better than the P-47 and about equal to the late model P-38s. Interesting eh.
 
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AussieEngineer    RE:Larry - The point   7/15/2006 1:53:30 AM
The rear tanks (there were 2) that were put in later run Mk IXs were 75 gallons, a bit bigger than the XVI's 66 gal tank because they didn't have the rear view fuselage.
 
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larryjcr    RE:Larry - The point   7/15/2006 12:25:26 PM
To MF: We've been over the rear fuselage tanks. They were only used for ferry mission, not combat. They were much farther aft of the center of lift than the tank on the Mustang, and on a lighter a/c, had a much greater effect on center of gravity. The Mustang fuselage tank had to be at least half empty for combat, with the Spitfire it would have had to be almost totally empty, and converted to self-sealing which would reduce the capacity considerably. In any event, drop tanks aside, the increases in fuel capacity in the Spitfire, from MkI to Mk21 didn't quite keep up with the increased appitite of the more powerful Merlins, and later Griffin engines.
 
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larryjcr    RE:Larry - The point   7/15/2006 12:33:23 PM
To AE My source gives range of the MkIA as 575 miles at economical cruising. Range for the MkXIVE (internal fuel) as 460 miles. Range for the MkVC as 470 miles. AS to the MkXVI, where did they put the extra fuel. It used the same wing as the MkIX, so no room there. If your talking about a rear fuselage tank, I covered that below. As to the MkXVIII, the argument was that the Spitfire was being developed for range comperable to a Mustang. The MkXVIII was a developement dead end. It's range increase was due to a new wing structure that was not developed further, or applied to later model a/c.
 
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larryjcr    RE:Larry - The point   7/15/2006 12:45:08 PM
To MF: WAnt to go thru those numbers a little slower?? For the MkIX, regular internal tank ahead of the pit was about 95 gal., same as a MkV. In the MkVIII the redesigned wing allowed another 28 gal. In the MkXVIII that went up to 53 gal. with a 66 gal rear fuselage tank as standard (but still not usable for combat. So combat radius for a MkIX is on a fuel load of 95 gal. less what's burned in combat. For a MkVIII it's on 123 gal. less what's burned in combat. For a MkXVIII (with the more thirsty Griffin) it's on 148 gal. less what's used in combat.
 
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larryjcr    RE:Larry - The point   7/15/2006 12:49:15 PM
To MF: First, how could it be 'not as good as the Mustang, ... about equal to the late model P-38s' when the late model P-38s had a greater combat radius than the Mustang?? Adding a larger rear fuselage that would increase ferry range, but not combat radius, for reasons given below. Note that the Mustang put the rear tank much closer to the CL, and was a heavier a/c, but the RAF still removed most of the rear fuselage tanks due to the effects on a/c handling of trying to fly combat with fuel back there. The Spitfire would have been much worse.
 
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larryjcr    RE:Larry - The point   7/15/2006 2:02:54 PM
To MF If you want to talk about Spitfire developement, there was the Spiteful. Basically a strengthened Spitfire fuselage on a copy of the Mustang wing. But it's range on internal fule was still less than 600 miles, while range of the P47D at MAXIMUM cruise was over 650 miles, P51D over 900 miles and the P38L at economical cruise was nearly 1200 miles.
 
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Hop    RE:Larry - The point   7/15/2006 4:15:39 PM
>>>To MF: We've been over the rear fuselage tanks. They were only used for ferry mission, not combat. They were much farther aft of the center of lift than the tank on the Mustang, and on a lighter a/c, had a much greater effect on center of gravity. The Mustang fuselage tank had to be at least half empty for combat, with the Spitfire it would have had to be almost totally empty,<<< The Spitfire IX manual has this to say on handling qualities with the rear fuselage tank: When the rear fuselage tanks are full there is a very marked reduction in longitudinal stability, the aircraft tightens in turns at all altitudes, and, in this condition is restricted to straight flying, and only gentle manoeuvres; accurate trimming is not possible and instrument flying should be avoided whenever possible. Aerobatics are not permitted when carrying any external stores (except the 30 gallon blister drop tank), nor when the rear fusealge tank contains more than 30 gallons of fuel, and are not reccomended when the rear tank contains any fuel. And this is what the RAF Mustang III manual says: When the fuselage tank is full, the aircraft is longitudinally unstable in all conditions of flight, and tends to tighten up in turns; until at least 40 imp gallons of fuel have been consumed from the tank, no manoeuvres other than very gentle turns should be attempted. (the rear tank contains 71 gallons when full) When carrying bombs or drop tanks, or fuel in the fuselage tank, areobatics are prohibited. So, in comparison, aerobatics in the Mustang were banned with any fuel in the tank, in the Spitfire with more than 30 gallons in the tank.
 
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Hop    RE:Larry - The point   7/15/2006 4:22:23 PM
>>>For the MkIX, regular internal tank ahead of the pit was about 95 gal., same as a MkV. <<< Actually in most it was about 85 gallons. The larger lower tank was not fitted routinely until the Spitfire VIII, and late production IX/XVIs. >>>In the MkVIII the redesigned wing allowed another 28 gal. <<< The late production IXs and XVIs also had wing tanks, 2 x 18 gallons. >>>So combat radius for a MkIX is on a fuel load of 95 gal. less what's burned in combat.<<< Unless the wing tanks and/or rear tanks are fitted.
 
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