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Subject: Banasir Bhutto badly injured in a suicide bomb attack.
Herald12345    12/27/2007 8:21:18 AM
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,70131-1298475,00.html Benazir Bhutto Critically Injured At Rally Updated:13:01, Thursday December 27, 2007 Opposition leader Benazir Bhutto has been critically injured after a suspected suicide attack at a political rally in Pakistan. It was believed to be a suicide attack It was believed to be a suicide attack She is undergoing emergency surgery at a nearby hospital, Sky News sources say. The explosion went off just after Ms Bhutto left the rally in Rawalpindi, minutes after her speech to thousands of people. More follows ... ____________________________________ I'm going out on a limb here and suggesting that the usual suspects may not be the blame boys. How about the ISI? Could those bastards have pulled a stunt like this and tried to make it look like an AQ job? Herald
 
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tigertony       12/27/2007 11:35:00 AM




You have a very good point on that one. If this was done by ISI or even Musharaf himself, then how could rest of the world trust such a regime with nuclear weapons? I think that sentinel is already in the prime location to survive 2012.





I have read and heard from several sources that The US has a plan in place to secure the Pakistani Nuclear Weapons.   Anyone have a counter to this?    Also, I forget the name but the US has a policy that if one nuke goes off in the US or it's allies traced back to the M.E. that the Middle east will be gone Mecca/Medina all of it....whether our President has the backbone if that horrendous event ever occurs is another factor.  I got to look up what the code word is...
 
 
    Well now it only takes a person with the will and purpose, + a physics degree, and half a brain, to build a nuke today!
 
     And the world is full of AQ Khan's, Lee's, and Gerald Bull's!
 
    And Herald, just who really has the "SUPER EGO"?   Me, or those whom you would call "Qualified"?
 
    And as for a nuke going off in New York?  Well we only lost 2 towers with no fallout,and look at the panic that ensued,and then we have New Orleans,and it still is not rebuilt,nor was it prevented after 9/11,then throw in over 12,000,000 illegals roaming cities all over America!.
 
   Now you can put your faith in Uncle Sam, but i would think about it for the sake of my family!. Afterall ,name just one truly nuke proof shelter that you can run too? Well better hope that interceptor don't miss,because you can damn well bet that Uncle Sam has his bunker to hide in if it does. 
 
    So what did Uncle Sam give his people?  "Duck and Cover"
 
 
                                                                            tigertony
 
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cosmoxl_2    2012?   12/27/2007 11:54:47 AM
I see references to the year 2012.  What's supposed to happen then and why?
 
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Softwar       12/27/2007 11:55:13 AM








You have a very good point on that one. If this was done by ISI or even Musharaf himself, then how could rest of the world trust such a regime with nuclear weapons? I think that sentinel is already in the prime location to survive 2012.







I have read and heard from several sources that The US has a plan in place to secure the Pakistani Nuclear Weapons.   Anyone have a counter to this?    Also, I forget the name but the US has a policy that if one nuke goes off in the US or it's allies traced back to the M.E. that the Middle east will be gone Mecca/Medina all of it....whether our President has the backbone if that horrendous event ever occurs is another factor.  I got to look up what the code word is...

 

 

    Well now it only takes a person with the will and purpose, + a physics degree, and half a brain, to build a nuke today!

 

     And the world is full of AQ Khan's, Lee's, and Gerald Bull's!

 

    And Herald, just who really has the "SUPER EGO"?   Me, or those whom you would call "Qualified"?

 

    And as for a nuke going off in New York?  Well we only lost 2 towers with no fallout,and look at the panic that ensued,and then we have New Orleans,and it still is not rebuilt,nor was it prevented after 9/11,then throw in over 12,000,000 illegals roaming cities all over America!.

 

   Now you can put your faith in Uncle Sam, but i would think about it for the sake of my family!. Afterall ,name just one truly nuke proof shelter that you can run too? Well better hope that interceptor don't miss,because you can damn well bet that Uncle Sam has his bunker to hide in if it does. 

 

    So what did Uncle Sam give his people?  "Duck and Cover"

 

 

                                                                            tigertony


Tigertony, me thinks you are over-reacting a bit.  This is no time to start digging holes.
 
While Pakistan may have the bomb - they certainly do not have the delivery systems to bring it to the USA except by slow boat.  The more likely scenario involves firing at US troops in Afghanistan or starting a conflict with India.  Both are enough to give us concern but these are things that can be handled.  The low number of available systems and the limited locations give rise to a pre-emptive strike if need be to knock them out (does Israel v. Syria ring a bell?)...
Looking out into the future of Pakistan ... a civil war with a radical government taking power is the worst case scenario.  Even this will have to play out over the next few weeks - so there is time to evaluate, maneuver, and take counter-measures if needed.
 
What is needed now is a calm head, and a helping hand where needed to track down the responsible parties.  The best plan is to help stabilize Pakistan not destabilize it.
 
 
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reefdiver       12/27/2007 12:03:12 PM

I see references to the year 2012.  What's supposed to happen then and why?


I believe 2012 is when several indigenous cultures of the Americas - the Mayans for certain and I believe some North American Indians - believe there will be a catastrophic earth/geologic event. Many of the cultures talk of this happening at least a couple of times in the past. North American Indians, particularily the Hopi and Navajo, talk legends of their ancestors having lived/survived underground for some years due to these previous events. Presumably this was the result of large meteorite strikes or volcanic activity but is relatively undefined and undocumented.
 
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kane       12/27/2007 12:36:09 PM
poor brave woman
RIP

 
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doggtag       12/27/2007 12:57:36 PM



I see references to the year 2012.  What's supposed to happen then and why?



I believe 2012 is when several indigenous cultures of the Americas - the Mayans for certain and I believe some North American Indians - believe there will be a catastrophic earth/geologic event. Many of the cultures talk of this happening at least a couple of times in the past. North American Indians, particularily the Hopi and Navajo, talk legends of their ancestors having lived/survived underground for some years due to these previous events. Presumably this was the result of large meteorite strikes or volcanic activity but is relatively undefined and undocumented.

Yeah, it's for a different topic entirely,
but an asteroid, comet, or meteorite strike shouldn't be overlooked.
 
We've already seen Jupiter pummeled by Shoemaker-Levy's fragments over a period of several days (  http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/sl9/    ).
 
What do these both have in common?
The rocks in question were discovered only months before the impacts (2007 WD5 as is called the 1-in-75-chance rock that might hit Mars was only discovered back in November).
 
Predictions suggest that in 2029, a 320m asteroid named 99942 Apophis may pass through an unlucky-for-us window that may cause an impact with us when it comes back around in 2036 (  http://www.space.com/news/051103_asteroid_apophis.html    ).
 
Apophis was, most likely, only so "easily" discovered because of its size: about 1000 feet long (diameter?).
But it's all those little ones that scare me: the car-sized and aircraft-sized clouds that, like the projected Mars hit, we won't see until just several weeks prior to impacts.
We watch in awe at the Perseids and Leonids and all the others we chance to see, but that should only make us realize that, quite obviously, if we can see those little pieces burning up in our atmosphere, then surely there are larger bits out there that just haven't found our gravity well yet.
 
Could Native American predictions have foreseen such an event, the raining down of much larger bits and pieces, over a period of several days, or weeks even, that causes more overall destruction than all the hurricanes, tsunamis, quakes, and volcanoes we've been through so far?
 
I'm not personally a doom-and-gloomer,
but can't help but laugh at all those past attempts by so-called seers and prophesizers that the world was supposed to have ended here, there, or on some other date in the past, and didn't (proof positive that there is still too much superstition in religion, no matter how righteous those God-told-me-it-would-all-come-to-pass doom predictors believed they were).
 
What's this got anything to do with Bhutto being killed?
Nothing really, other than the outright, overt superstitions that generally run so rampant throughout the islam areas of the world that it just surprises me that none of those cultish, hyper-fanatic, ignorant chauvinists didn't try getting rid of her sooner.
"A woman in such a seat of power and authority over men! Surely Allah Himself must take such great offense! Death to her!"
 
Despite whatever questionable ties she may or may not have had during her political run,
she accomplished a lot more positive achievements in the muslim world than a lot of those men who, through such acts of violence, claim be disciples and followers of their Great Prophet.
Too bad so many imams would prefer to incite such violent tendencies (dare I suggest, even condone her assassination?), rather than actually try promoting equality among islam's masses, and promoting peace with the rest of the world?
If militant C
 
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tigertony    Softwar   12/27/2007 12:57:38 PM













You have a very good point on that one. If this was done by ISI or even Musharaf himself, then how could rest of the world trust such a regime with nuclear weapons? I think that sentinel is already in the prime location to survive 2012.









I have read and heard from several sources that The US has a plan in place to secure the Pakistani Nuclear Weapons.   Anyone have a counter to this?    Also, I forget the name but the US has a policy that if one nuke goes off in the US or it's allies traced back to the M.E. that the Middle east will be gone Mecca/Medina all of it....whether our President has the backbone if that horrendous event ever occurs is another factor.  I got to look up what the code word is...



 



 



    Well now it only takes a person with the will and purpose, + a physics degree, and half a brain, to build a nuke today!



 



     And the world is full of AQ Khan's, Lee's, and Gerald Bull's!



 



    And Herald, just who really has the "SUPER EGO"?   Me, or those whom you would call "Qualified"?



 



    And as for a nuke going off in New York?  Well we only lost 2 towers with no fallout,and look at the panic that ensued,and then we have New Orleans,and it still is not rebuilt,nor was it prevented after 9/11,then throw in over 12,000,000 illegals roaming cities all over America!.



 



   Now you can put your faith in Uncle Sam, but i would think about it for the sake of my family!. Afterall ,name just one truly nuke proof shelter that you can run too? Well better hope that interceptor don't miss,because you can damn well bet that Uncle Sam has his bunker to hide in if it does. 



 



    So what did Uncle Sam give his people?  "Duck and Cover"



 



 



                                                                            tigertony




Tigertony, me thinks you are over-reacting a bit.  This is no time to start digging holes.

 

While Pakistan may have the bomb - they certainly do not have the delivery systems to bring it to the USA except by slow boat.  The more likely scenario involves firing at US troops in Afghanistan or starting a conflict with India.  Both are enough to give us concern but these are things that can be handled.  The low number of available systems and the limited locations give rise to a pre-emptive strike if need be to knock them out (does Israel v. Syria ring a bell?)...

Looking out into the future of Pakistan ... a civil war with a radical government taking power is the worst case scenario.  Even this will have to play out over the next few weeks - so there is time to evaluate, maneuver, and take counter-measures if needed.

 

What is needed now is a calm head, and a helping hand where needed to track down the responsible parties.  The best plan is to help stabilize Pakis
 
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swhitebull    Why We need to Worry Big Time   12/27/2007 3:06:01 PM
from Andrew McCarthy, National Review:
 
 
Benazir Bhutto
Killed by the real Pakistan.

By Andrew C. McCarthy

A recent CNN poll showed that 46 percent of Pakistanis approve of Osama bin Laden.
Aspirants to the American presidency should hope to score so highly in the United States. In Pakistan, though, the al-Qaeda emir easily beat out that country?s current president, Pervez Musharraf, who polled at 38 percent.

President George Bush, the face of a campaign to bring democracy — or, at least, some form of sharia-lite that might pass for democracy — to the Islamic world, registered nine percent. Nine!


If you want to know what to make of former prime minister Benazir Bhutto?s murder today in Pakistan, ponder that.

There is the Pakistan of our fantasy. The burgeoning democracy in whose vanguard are judges and lawyers and human rights activists using the ?rule of law? as a cudgel to bring down a military junta. In the fantasy, Bhutto, an attractive, American-educated socialist whose prominent family made common cause with Soviets and whose tenures were rife with corruption, was somehow the second coming of James Madison.

Then there is the real Pakistan: an enemy of the United States and the West.

The real Pakistan is a breeding ground of Islamic holy war where, for about half the population, the only thing more intolerable than Western democracy is the prospect of a faux democracy led by a woman — indeed, a product of feudal Pakistani privilege and secular Western breeding whose father, President Zulfiquar Ali Bhutto, had been branded as an enemy of Islam by influential Muslim clerics in the early 1970s.

The real Pakistan is a place where the intelligence services are salted with Islamic fundamentalists: jihadist sympathizers who, during the 1980s, steered hundreds of millions in U.S. aid for the anti-Soviet mujahideen to the most anti-Western Afghan fighters — warlords like Gilbuddin Hekmatyar whose Arab allies included bin Laden and Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, the stalwarts of today?s global jihad against America.

The real Pakistan is a place where the military, ineffective and half-hearted though it is in combating Islamic terror, is the thin line between today?s boiling pot and what tomorrow is more likely to be a jihadist nuclear power than a Western-style democracy.

In that real Pakistan, Benazir Bhutto?s murder is not shocking. There, it was a matter of when, not if.

It is the new way of warfare to proclaim that our quarrel is never with the heroic, struggling people of fill-in-the-blank country. No, we, of course, fight only the regime that oppresses them and frustrates their unquestionable desire for freedom and equality.

Pakistan just won?t cooperate with this noble narrative.

Whether we get round to admitting it or not, in Pakistan, our quarrel is with the people. Their struggle, literally, is jihad. For them, freedom would mean institutionalizing the tyranny of Islamic fundamentalism. They are the same people who, only a few weeks ago, tried to kill Benazir Bhutto on what was to be her triumphant return to prominence — the symbol, however dubious, of democracy?s promise. They are the same people who managed to kill her today. Today, no surfeit of Western media depicting angry lawyers railing about Musharraf — as if he were the problem — can camouflage that fact.

In Pakistan, it is the regime that propounds Western values, such as last year?s reform of oppressive, Sharia-based Hudood laws, which made rape virtually impossible to prosecute — a reform enacted despite furious fundamentalist rioting that was, shall we say, less well covered in the Western press. The regime, unreliable and at times infuriating, is our only friend. It is the only segment of Pakistani society capable of confronting militant Islam — though its vigor for doing so is too often sapped by its own share of jihadist sympathizers.

Yet, we?ve spent two months pining about its suppression of democracy — its instinct not further to empower the millions who hate us.

For the United States, the question is whether we learn nothing from repeated, inescapable lessons that placing democratization at the top of our foreign policy priorities is high-order folly.

The transformation from Islamic society to true democracy is a long-term project. It woul
 
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Softwar    Tigertony - What Me Worry?   12/27/2007 4:12:24 PM

    So tell me did Israel destroy those Hezzbullies? Funny that their Merkava took a worse beating then their Shermans!.
    
And that has what to do with today's events in Pakistan?  Hezbollah is an arm of Iranian policy and the Iranians are close to Pakistan.  The Israelis paid the price of not being prepared.  They cut their training 10 years ago because of left wing politics and it showed in southern Lebanon.   "Train hard - fight easy" - Zukov
-------------------------------------------

     So is Israel gaining ground or losing it? Well seems they give back land, but find no peace!

It has been that way for years - decades - since 1946.  So no change there.  It also does not seem like Israel will be doing battle with any major Arab foe soon - not Egypt, Syria, or even Iran.  Israel is not going away either.
-------------------------------------------

     So is the "House of Saud" getting weaker as our oil prices rise and rise? Nope,they just have more secret accounts in Switzerland!.


And this is not new either.  The price was depressed in the 1990s but Saudi Arabia was still very much a power player.  The price goes up - the price goes down.  Saudi will still be a player.  The higher price has more effect on bit part players who now have cash like Iran, Venezula, Sudan or Nigeria.
-------------------------------------------

     So is Russia,Iran,and China getting weaker as our dollar falls and falls? Nope,Putin builds GPS for his dog,and new missles for us,and Iran enriches for a Russian reactor,and China builds 200,000,000 man super bunkers under Beijing,and new subs, with better missles and stealth courtesy of Mr Lee!.


Russia is still a hollow shell of the former Soviet Union.  The SS-27 missiles are being deployed at a glacier like pace and they still rely on Soviet era SS-18 missiles some of which are 30+ years old.  They have yet to pump out a fifth gen fighter or anything like our B-2.  Their SSBN force is few and mainly in port along with the rest of the Russian Navy.  The vaulted Typhoon class is now a bunch of rusting hulks.  Even their aircraft carrier had to be towed to the exercise area because it won't run long enough to sail there and back.  Russia is barely a Euro power much less a global player.

China cannot field a 2,000,000 man PLA much less 200,000,000.  How long can a million man army tread water?  Their weapons are has-been knock offs of Russian equipment.  Their nuke subs operate with a surface force close by because they don't trust the technology to stay submerged.  Their ASW is primitive.  They have yet to deploy a good long range cruise missile, the DF-31 is still an iffy thing, no active SSBN missile, and the Type 93 and Type 94 nuke boats have been so disappointing in performance that they may very well abandon them in favor of a newer design.

You won't find anyone on this board more anti-PRC than me but I am not going to build them up to be 10 feet tall.  I know of their faults and the biggest is the totalitarian state that is doomed to fail.  Pretty weapons don't make a modern armed force - I would have thought the Saddam lesson would have sunk in by now.    
-------------------------------------------

      So has the UK left troops in Basra? Nope, they removed them and went home to London,when they are needed far more in Basra or Iran!.


The Brits did their job and finished.  Time for the Iraqis to do theirs.  Can't hold their hands forever.
-------------------------------------------

      So has NATO been meeting it's commitments? Nope,and thats why the USA will have to make another surge against terrorism ourselves!.


NATO and our allies have put up quite a bit to help out but don't expect them to over-do it either.  There are Germans, French, Dutch and Norwegan troops in Afghanistan along with Brits.  They are welcomed additions of firepower and experience    They will continue to fight.
-------------------------------------------

      So has anyone struck down Iran? Nope,but Russia and China will use our money to sell them new missles!.


No need.  The Iranians are doing a great job of ruining themselves.  They had to import gas over the summer to stop riots.  When was the last time you ever heard of an OPEC member impo

 
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GreyJackal       12/27/2007 5:45:39 PM
The year 2012 is not just predicted by the Mayans and Native Americans as the end date, but also by a certain chinese numercial system that is used to predict the future and even the lost book of Nostradamus is supposed to allude to some bad gonna happen in 2012. Plus Astromers also predict that on December 2012 that there will be a major re-alignment of planets.
 
I don't know what all this means but, I try not to think too much about the end of the world cause it puts a damper on my mood.
 
 
 
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