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Subject: Interesting UK Specific Defence Websites
jimbo55    1/26/2008 6:56:17 PM
Besides this discussion forum of course, there are some useful and interesting sites out there for UK specific information, resources and discussion etc http://www.defenceoftherealm.com http://www.arrse.co.uk http://www.armedforces.co.uk http://www.forcesreunited.org.uk/forum/default.asp http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk Have been reading strategypage for ages but this is my first post. Thought you might be interested as there doesnt seem to be a UK specific topic in the links section of strategypage so hope I am not breaking any forum rules!
 
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Yimmy       2/3/2008 8:45:34 PM
Bob, you are right.
 
However the military budget will not achieve levels we know it should.  Even politicians in office realise the armed forces are hard done by, however there are no votes in defence anymore, and so no politician has defence igh on their agenda.
 
There are no votes in defence, because people don't see their security as at risk.  There were not many votes in defence in the 1930's, with a resurgent Germany on our very doorstep, so how can people expect people in Exeter to give a damn about Afghanistan?
 
In my mind eye, the operations in Iraq and Afghanistan are a success if only for their attracting militants and terrorists to fight us in Iraq and Afghanistan, as opposed to on UK soil.  Lets not be naive and think these people wouldn't want to kill us if we weren't over there.
 
Concurrent definitions of "conflict resolution" and "violence" in academia justify much enhanced military spending and action, however there is a bridge between academia and the layman - and the layman has the votes the politicians care about.
 
 
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bob the brit       2/3/2008 11:20:47 PM

Bob, you are right.

 

However the military budget will not achieve levels we know it should.  Even politicians in office realise the armed forces are hard done by, however there are no votes in defence anymore, and so no politician has defence igh on their agenda.

 

There are no votes in defence, because people don't see their security as at risk.  There were not many votes in defence in the 1930's, with a resurgent Germany on our very doorstep, so how can people expect people in Exeter to give a damn about Afghanistan?

 

In my mind eye, the operations in Iraq and Afghanistan are a success if only for their attracting militants and terrorists to fight us in Iraq and Afghanistan, as opposed to on UK soil.  Lets not be naive and think these people wouldn't want to kill us if we weren't over there.

 

Concurrent definitions of "conflict resolution" and "violence" in academia justify much enhanced military spending and action, however there is a bridge between academia and the layman - and the layman has the votes the politicians care about.

 


yimmy, I undersand you in the fullest. the picture was the same colour in the 30's when the public at large wanted to see social spending [hospitals/education/the list goes on]. I find it some what unfortunate that defense [while we put a considerable amount of GDP towards it] be so little, almost following the same mistakes as back then, on the political agenda. But, then again, I'm an old boy always supportive of an increase in our defense spending, if only as a preparatory measure to future woes. Anyway yimmy, I'm curious, what are you up to these days? If I remember correctly, you were in some form of education?
 
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paul1970       2/4/2008 9:58:53 AM

Out of curiosity Paul, Can you name the top ten 'far more pressing matters' under:

Health

Education

and

Social Matters

That require this funding?

Also whilst you're at it can you explain to me where the Gov is gonna get the extra £8bn it needs to cover the hole in its finances. Do you support another 2p on income tax? Is there any point at which the taxation levels become too high?

Also, please explain how so many people think that it is only right and proper that departmental spending goes up every year? The assumption in the private sector is that - generally speaking - costs should decrease by 5% or so each year due to greater efficiency. Why is the same not true of Government?

Sorry Paul, I don't mean to sound aggressive. But I can't help feeling this is all on topic, and you are a  frequent advocate of the softer side of Government spending. Yet you have yet to provide any suggestion of why you think, for example, that education requires three times the funding level of defence. Education may or may not be more important than defence, but please tell me why it's three times more important, not for instance seven times more important or 1.5 times more important?





no problem with you having a go.
 
education needs more spending to get us churning out kids capable of competing on the international stage for technical work. but mainly to keep them actually interested so that they don't drift off and drop outI am okay for university education being funded by the person going as they get the benefit of high wage to offset paying for it.
 
 
social... we have increasing trouble in all areas here. more police, doing more police things. build more prisons and make sentences longer and reflect the crime... rather than be driven by places and this soft touch that we have now.
 
I don't class these as "soft spending". I class them as moving to prevent a worsening situation...
 
health... well that will swallow whatever you want to throw at it so I don't advocate any more there than now unless it can be shown that the extra money will produce results rather than just be swallowed up in a black hole.
 
get rid of PFI... it is a complete shark that will ruin us for years.
 
 
 
basically I don't see defense as a priority higher than any of the ones you mention and I work in the D industry and rely on government spending for my wage..... the money in defense needs to be spent on the operations we have ongoing now rather than ships for missions that we may never do. in an ideal world we would have everyting but we cannot afford it. I don't see a threat to the UK that requires us to have the carriers and support proposed. spend the money elsewhere.
 
and I don't want a tax increase to fund anything else more... I pay too much tax as it is... I payed 25K income tax the year before last (not much at all last year as I went overseas for most of it)....tax freedom day has moved about 10 days worse since labour came in and I don't want it to move anymore.
 
 
paul
 
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paul1970       2/4/2008 10:12:36 AM




Armchair Private

I?m also a believer in the softer side of government spending, and I also have difficulty with regard to raising the defence budget. For example I?ve never signed PerfectGeneral?s petitions, although I respect his views and fully understand where he is coming from.




The reality is that the military cannot really deal with the threat that the UK faces these days (which is basically a small number of young Muslim men who live in this country). I would argue that the Iraq and Afghanistan interventions have been failures and they have not increased our security.




I?m sorry if that offends people, and I?m mindful of the sacrifices that individual soldiers make, but that doesn?t alter the point. I do not see what other threats will face us this century, and the fact is that the military just isn?t that important. There is far more to life than big aircraft carriers! The other things you could bear in mind is that we are still the worlds? third or fourth biggest defence spender ? with a far higher proportion of GDP going to it than say Italy, Belgium, Germany or the Netherlands.




Also, what would success cost? Helmand alone needs a division plus (4 Brigades maybe) of British troops to hold ground against the Taleban and that is just one province! To pacify the whole country we would need an army and the costs to achieve that are too high and not worth it.  




With regard to health, the number of older people is rapidly increasing, and the government had to invest huge sums in the NHS (which basically looks after older people) to keep it viable. Although the NHS isn?t perfect, this investment has worked; average life expectancy has increased by one year for each of the past ten years.




As for education we have to increase the number of people with qualifications in order to compete with the Chinese and Indians, who are sending vast numbers of people to college. This is of enormous priority ? low skilled people cannot compete because other people in foreign countries can do the same job for one-tenth of the salary. If we want to maintain a high standard of living, we MUST up-skill children and the workforce.




Social matters is of course about helping people who are less well-off than we are. You might dislike ?skivers? (and I daresay that some people are abusing the system), but this spending does include care home subsidies, the long-term ill, help for disabled people, homeless hostels etc. Having been unemployed, I can assure you that it is no laugh, and the little help that you get is most needed.




Government does genuinely try to create efficiencies in all spending departments ? honest! Talk to doctors, the Police, people working for Social Services, quango?s, council officers, charities etc and they will all complain about under-resourcing in exactly the same way that the army/navy/RAF do. It all comes down to what you see as the key priorities ? for you it is maybe the army whereas I am more concerned about schools. Government tries to balance this, and it is a matter of opinion as to whether they get it right or not.




As to finding £8 billion, I?ve no idea how they will do it. Probably low wage rises and tight departmental budgets across government with some judicious tax rises.




To finish off, there is a shed-load of whinging about this government. I like Arsse, but it is full of utter whingers! I daresay that the criticism is justified in some cases, but the quality of most people?s lives is so much better than it was 15 years ago, that you can?t help but feel that they?ve got something right.  







you may all ridicule me for this point, but the necessity of a military force should never be underestimated. back in the late 20's/early 30's, Britain never thought she'd need a decent sized military force, the navy got rid of its 'size' rule, equipment was sold, recruitment wasn't cared for, technology went to shams, the ten year rule was ridiculously signed year after year, churchill saw to it that funding was lessened [far beyond what should have been], then whoops, look what hap
 
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flamingknives       2/4/2008 1:35:13 PM
Education needs to realise that not everyone needs to go to University, and that companies probably would fund on-the-job training if the government didn't take their profits via tax.  
Some money should be spent on teaching the correct English spelling of words.
 
Social - similar comments, plus people who spank vast sums on promoting "diversity" ought to be fired. From a cannon. Unemployment benefits should be a safety net rather than a career choice.

Defence. The MoD needs a great big slap and needs to sort out the utter catastrophe that masquerades as its procurement process. If procurement was run in a sensible manner, we would already have FRES UV - or Boxer as it was known when we pulled out of it for trendy political reasons - and we would have money available to buy aviation-capable ships that the Royal Navy needs if it is going to be a Navy and not a coastguard.  If we lose the capability then it will be very hard to get it back. 
 
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interestedamateur       2/4/2008 1:45:36 PM

Education needs to realise that not everyone needs to go to University, and that companies probably would fund on-the-job training if the government didn't take their profits via tax.  
Some money should be spent on teaching the correct English spelling of words.
 
Social - similar comments, plus people who spank vast sums on promoting "diversity" ought to be fired. From a cannon. Unemployment benefits should be a safety net rather than a career choice.

Defence. The MoD needs a great big slap and needs to sort out the utter catastrophe that masquerades as its procurement process. If procurement was run in a sensible manner, we would already have FRES UV - or Boxer as it was known when we pulled out of it for trendy political reasons - and we would have money available to buy aviation-capable ships that the Royal Navy needs if it is going to be a Navy and not a coastguard.  If we lose the capability then it will be very hard to get it back. 
I don't agree with all of this FK. I think people do need to receive education and training and it should be supported by the government. It can't just be a corporate responsibility because companies think too narrowly and won't provide all of the tools and knowledge that people need to succeed in the "knowledge economy". Although your comments about 'social' made me laugh, the fact is that you would not get a huge amount if you cut all of the diversity programmes. I don't know enough about the procurement process enough to comment, but I suspect that they do not have an easy job in the face of changing requirements and tight budgets.
 
Bob I take your point about needing armed forces (and I wouldn't disagree with you at all on their utility) but the threat needs be made clearer before extra large sums are spent on them. Perhaps we should be thinking more about limiting our overseas interventions instead?   


 
 
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Yimmy       2/4/2008 3:03:47 PM

Anyway yimmy, I'm curious, what are you up to these days? If I remember correctly, you were in some form of education?

Yeah I study International Relations at uni.

 
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flamingknives       2/4/2008 5:34:40 PM
Cor, I come across like a right Daily Mail reader on that one.

I blame blood loss after rather carelessly taking a carving knife to my thumb.

The point remains that:
A) There are many "University" degrees that are not worth the toilet paper that they are written on, and these get all the government funding of other degrees.
B) Education for its own sake is all very well, but it would be nice to remember that it ought to have a practical basis. I suspect that its no coincidence that two of the best engineers in my company started as apprentices. Government support is admirable. Political control is less desirable.

The "diversity" often comes across as thinly veiled racism from the minorities, which is why I'm not overly impressed by it. In addition, it serves to keep people separate, so it's actually counter-productive.

The procurment process is frequently a horrific mess, unduly influenced by political trends, incomplete (or non-existant) operational analysis and wooly thinking.
 
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Armchair Private       2/4/2008 5:45:11 PM

Armchair Private

I?m also a believer in the softer side of government spending, and I also have difficulty with regard to raising the defence budget. For example I?ve never signed PerfectGeneral?s petitions, although I respect his views and fully understand where he is coming from.


The reality is that the military cannot really deal with the threat that the UK faces these days (which is basically a small number of young Muslim men who live in this country). I would argue that the Iraq and Afghanistan interventions have been failures and they have not increased our security.

What threat do these guys possibly pose to the UK? A few dead each year? So far they've managed 50 odd in the  last few years, which, whilst admitting that I may be sounding a bit heartless, is 1/60th of the amount of people that die each year on our roads. Do we need a war on terror or a war on road deaths then? 1,000 young men each year kill themselves according to the beeb today. Shall we have a global war against depression? Any objective measure says that road deaths and suicide are far more terrible threats to the UK than terrorism. Or is it just because Terrorism sells newspapers, and suicides don't that we worry so much about it?

Iraq and Afghanistan are far from being a 'how to' guide but I'm with Mao on both. It's too soon to tell whether they are mission failures. Look at other countries the Americans have invaded, Japan, Germany, spring to mind. Theirs still hope.

I?m sorry if that offends people, and I?m mindful of the sacrifices that individual soldiers make, but that doesn?t alter the point. I do not see what other threats will face us this century, and the fact is that the military just isn?t that important. There is far more to life than big aircraft carriers! The other things you could bear in mind is that we are still the worlds? third or fourth biggest defence spender ? with a far higher proportion of GDP going to it than say Italy, Belgium, Germany or the Netherlands.

Italy and Belgium are as close to failed states as western european nations currently get. The Germans and the Dutch moan to the high hills about US hegemon, but are happy to sit under america's strategic umbrella. Think that umbrella will be here for ever? Think again. Just read the posts of the Americans on this site.

Also, what would success cost? Helmand alone needs a division plus (4 Brigades maybe) of British troops to hold ground against the Taleban and that is just one province! To pacify the whole country we would need an army and the costs to achieve that are too high and not worth it.  

Afghanistan is an optional war. I certainly wouldn't advocate building your military around it.

With regard to health, the number of older people is rapidly increasing, and the government had to invest huge sums in the NHS (which basically looks after older people) to keep it viable. Although the NHS isn?t perfect, this investment has worked; average life expectancy has increased by one year for each of the past ten years.

Firstly, that stat has more to do with central heating and a wider diet than anything else, and secondly even if it were the case what makes you assume that an insurance system couldn't be cheaper and more effective?

As for education we have to increase the number of people with qualifications in order to compete with the Chinese and Indians, who are sending vast numbers of people to college. This is of enormous priority ? low skilled people cannot compete because other people in foreign countries can do the same job for one-tenth of the salary. If we want to maintain a high standard of living, we MUST up-skill children and the workforce.

Yes. But the really valuable skills, those that add real, tangible value, like the sciences, computing, maths, pharmacy, engineering, etc are dying on the vine. Currently we are churning out literally millions of students with humanities degrees and debts of £20,000+ All of them taught to unthinkingly accept that internationalism is the only possible way forward, and that working for the UK's competitive advantage is racist. Go to the US, France, China, India, Iran, Australia, Brazil, Indonesia, Japan, Korea, Turkmenistan, Chad, or any other nation on earth and note that their students are not taught this. So where will that leave us? Sitting plum on the moral high ground, just as everyone else picks over our rotten corpse.

Social matters is of course about helping pe

 
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flamingknives       2/4/2008 5:51:07 PM
Cor, I come across like a right Daily Mail reader on that one.

I blame blood loss after rather carelessly taking a carving knife to my thumb.

The point remains that:
A) There are many "University" degrees that are not worth the toilet paper that they are written on, and these get all the government funding of other degrees.
B) Education for its own sake is all very well, but it would be nice to remember that it ought to have a practical basis. I suspect that its no coincidence that two of the best engineers in my company started as apprentices. Government support is admirable. Political control is less desirable.

The "diversity" often comes across as thinly veiled racism from the minorities, which is why I'm not overly impressed by it. In addition, it serves to keep people separate, so it's actually counter-productive.

The procurment process is frequently a horrific mess, unduly influenced by political trends, incomplete (or non-existant) operational analysis and wooly thinking.
 
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