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Subject: guns for the UK?
paul1970    9/11/2007 12:32:17 PM
current thread on weapons board about guncrime in US going down because they have legal ownership. and some thinking that we need guns in the UK. what are the views of UK posters? my own is that the US situation is different than the UK and that more legal ownership here would only mean more criminals would turn to guns and this would increase the number of firearm crimes and deaths. Paul
 
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paul1970       9/14/2007 1:14:55 PM

NATO OF-2 RN:
Handguns, old bean.

The crux of the matter is this:
"my own [view] is that the US situation is different than the UK and that more legal ownership here would only mean more criminals would turn to guns and this would increase the number of firearm crimes and deaths." 

Where previously, more guns were legally held, firearms crimes and deaths were lower.

However Paul may wish to change positions, that was his original.

Also, the link to rampages was also off. Comparison with the US is clearly not logical, as they have fundamentally different gun laws to those we have had here. Either of the rampages in the UK could have been stopped by improved security of firearms or the simple expedient of the police doing their jobs when other members of a shooting club voiced their concern.

yes, firearm crimes and deaths were lower but were they a  rising trend????
 
 
so the US has different laws... how does this affect that the UK public did not want another massacre???? tighter rules may have worked but a clear ban on guns was more likely to work and far easier to enact than just tighter rules and gets rid of your police not doing their job properly (ie make sure it doesn't matter) and was backed by the public.
 
ht*p://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm
 
ht*p://www.gun-control-network.org/GF07.htm
 
cannot vouch for accuracy but look at those numbers prior to gun ban........
 
 

"The rise in UK gun crime is a long term trend that is apparently unaffected by the state of UK firearms legislation. [20] Before the 1997 ban, handguns were only held by 0.1% of the population,[21] and while the number of crimes involving firearms in England and Wales increased from 13,874 in 1998/99 to 24,070 in 2002/03, they remained relatively static at 24,094 in 2003/04, and have since fallen to 21,521 in 2005/06. The latter includes 3,275 crimes involving imitation firearms and 10,437 involving air weapons, compared to 566 and 8,665 respectively in 1998/99.[22] Only those "firearms" positively identified as being imitations or air weapons (e.g. by being recovered by the police or by being fired) are classed as such, so the actual numbers are likely to be significantly higher. In 2005/06, 8,978 of the total of 21,521 firearms crimes (42%) were for criminal damage.[23]

Since 1998, the number of people injured by firearms in England and Wales increased by 110%,[24] from 2,378 in 1998/99 to 5,001 in 2005/06. "Injury" in this context means by being fired, used a blunt instrument, or as a threat. In 2005/06, 87% of such injuries were defined as "slight," which includes the use of firearms as a threat only. The number of homicides committed with firearms has remained between a

 
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NATO OF-2 RN       9/14/2007 6:43:43 PM
Old bean?

My apologies - in thread skimming, a dangerous practise I'm forced to fall back on in response to the sheer long windedness of some people on this forum (not necessarily in this discussion) I missed your concentration on handguns as opposed to guns in general and thought you were arguing in favour of gun laws a la the US as being more effective at combating gun crime.

I personally would have no problems with handguns in gun clubs alongside their longer barrelled brethren.

I still maintain that Paul1970 is very much on the right track and you should read less into bald statistics, Flamingknives as regards the link to violent crime.

 
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Armchair Private       9/17/2007 6:03:27 PM
As a slight aside to the above, there is one statistic that is unarguable from the US.

If you have a gun in your house, your family are very much more in danger than if you do not.

Why? Because men/women shoot their partners, when drunk, depressed, fearing or witnessing adultery etc.

And shoot their kids when they stumble home drunk, three hours after 'curfew', fearing intruders.

 
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paul1970       9/20/2007 11:18:59 AM

As a slight aside to the above, there is one statistic that is unarguable from the US.

If you have a gun in your house, your family are very much more in danger than if you do not.

Why? Because men/women shoot their partners, when drunk, depressed, fearing or witnessing adultery etc.

And shoot their kids when they stumble home drunk, three hours after 'curfew', fearing intruders.



are there any statistics for this?
 
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tigertony    Armchair   9/20/2007 2:32:15 PM
As a slight aside to the above, there is one statistic that is unarguable from the US.

If you have a gun in your house, your family are very much more in danger than if you do not.

Why? Because men/women shoot their partners, when drunk, depressed, fearing or witnessing adultery etc.

And shoot their kids when they stumble home drunk, three hours after 'curfew', fearing intruders.
 
  
   Actually men/women murder their partners,not shoot them,shooting a gun is just another method of human madness!.
 
  And i wonder how that poor unarmed drunk just going home to his family felt as he was killed by a gang of thugs with a knife?   "Well he should of armed himself".
 
 And i wonder just how many men/women got killed by a gun who was not at home while waiting for ADT or Brinks to send an officer?
                                                                              tigertony
 
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FJV       9/20/2007 2:36:25 PM
For what it's worth this is what I as a Dutchman make of it:
 
In my opinion crime and the amount legal gun ownership are not all that related. There is an example for each possibility of high and low crime rate versus small amount and large amount of legal gun ownership.
- Low crime rate--Low legal gun ownership   Japan
- High crime rate--Low legal gun ownership  Brasil
- Low crime rate--High legal gun ownership   Switserland
- High crime rate--High legal gun ownership   US

So you have people who want to ban guns and people wanting more gun ownership citing a relation between crime and the amount of legal guns in a country. But when I look closely at that relation, then it is not obvious that there even is such a thing. I cannot predict wheter a country has a high crime rate on the amount of legally owned guns alone. So in my opinion both sides of the debate use a link between crime and legal gun ownership that is questionable.

In my opinion that means that at least some of the gun ownership debate should also adress other reasons for allowing law abiding citizens to have guns. Such reasons could be:
- National defense
- Defense of minorities against organized group violence
- A guarantee that a state cannot impose all it wants on a population
Etc, etc...









 
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bob the brit       9/20/2007 3:41:49 PM
just a question for you tony... why are you always on the UK board, i've yet to see you post a comment on the board of your "glorious" nation (now i'm not saying you haven't, i'm just saying i haven't seen you on there)
you seem to be infatuated with the UK board, i thought you really disliked us 'bigots' from 'fascist' britain?
 
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bob the brit       9/20/2007 3:45:51 PM

As a slight aside to the above, there is one statistic that is unarguable from the US.

If you have a gun in your house, your family are very much more in danger than if you do not.

Why? Because men/women shoot their partners, when drunk, depressed, fearing or witnessing adultery etc.

And shoot their kids when they stumble home drunk, three hours after 'curfew', fearing intruders.

 

  

   Actually men/women murder their partners,not shoot them,shooting a gun is just another method of human madness!.

 

  And i wonder how that poor unarmed drunk just going home to his family felt as he was killed by a gang of thugs with a knife?   "Well he should of armed himself".

 

 And i wonder just how many men/women got killed by a gun who was not at home while waiting for ADT or Brinks to send an officer?

                                                                              tigertony



another question tony, how many times a year do people get stabbed by knife weilding gangs? i've been mugged not once, not twice, but thrice walking home from the pub. did i wish i had a gun? NO, shooting people leads to too many complications in my opinion (that's the vital point too, MY OPNION), that and i don't live in a constant state of fear and paranoia about getting stabbed or mugged or whatever.

 
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Armchair Private       9/20/2007 3:48:56 PM



As a slight aside to the above, there is one statistic that is unarguable from the US.

If you have a gun in your house, your family are very much more in danger than if you do not.

Why? Because men/women shoot their partners, when drunk, depressed, fearing or witnessing adultery etc.

And shoot their kids when they stumble home drunk, three hours after 'curfew', fearing intruders.




are there any statistics for this?

ht*p://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1447364

Results. In region- and state-level analyses, a robust association between rates of household firearm ownership and homicide was found. Regionally, the association exists for victims aged 5 to 14 years and those 35 years and older. At the state level, the association exists for every age group over age 5, even after controlling for poverty, urbanization, unemployment, alcohol consumption, and nonlethal violent crime.



 
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Armchair Private       9/20/2007 3:56:32 PM

As a slight aside to the above, there is one statistic that is unarguable from the US.

If you have a gun in your house, your family are very much more in danger than if you do not.

Why? Because men/women shoot their partners, when drunk, depressed, fearing or witnessing adultery etc.

And shoot their kids when they stumble home drunk, three hours after 'curfew', fearing intruders.

 

  

   Actually men/women murder their partners,not shoot them,shooting a gun is just another method of human madness!.

 

  And i wonder how that poor unarmed drunk just going home to his family felt as he was killed by a gang of thugs with a knife?   "Well he should of armed himself".

 

 And i wonder just how many men/women got killed by a gun who was not at home while waiting for ADT or Brinks to send an officer?

                                                                              tigertony


I imagine they would both feel pretty bad, and would wish they had a gun.

But, rationally, you have to take a step back and say where is the real danger.

I think it's pretty clear that the greater risk to you - and your loved ones - comes from gun ownership. Not from having your home invaded.

 
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