The British defeat in America -

Military History \| How To Make War \| Wars Around the World	Rules of Use	How to Behave on an Internet Forum
United Kingdom Discussion Board
Return to Topic Page

Subject: The British defeat in America -
Herc the Merc 5/29/2007 8:27:07 PM

Perhaps one of the few major wars lost by Britain and that too in its own territory with vast ties by blood. How is the American war potrayed in English history books-- a civil war, liberation war, anarchy???? Its perhaps odd that Britain lost America, one of its few territories that it had connections with in bloodline. Even Britain and India parted ways with a handshake and cup of tea. The Yanks broke the tea crates in Boston Harbor and had bloody good fight.

Quote Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title Newest to Oldest

Pages: PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 NEXT

flamingknives 7/7/2007 5:25:31 AM

Sorry tigertony, I'm afraid I don't understand.

Are you saying that your treatment of Native Americans was not as bad as the British treatment of people?

Weren't the British the first to ban slavery?

Regarding your statements on nations and empires, how do you think those nations came into being? The very formation of the USA was the result of Emperialism, just conducted across one country without the need for ships. Mexico? Artifically formed by a European colonial power out of whatever was there before. Belgium has two distinct ethnic groups who continue to spark off each other. Spain has its Basque sepratists, Russia has its Chechens

etc. Out of interest, how big is Mexico, and what happened at the Alamo.

As for what we were doing fighting the French, yes it was Empire. We were trying to stop them carving one out of mainland continent. Prior to that we were trying to retain holdings belonging to our imported nobility, while the rest of the French tried to carve out some more land at their expense.

As for Hitler, I think before making pronouncements on what you would have done, you need to appreciate the situation from a political, military and popular perspective. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but you need to understand the priorities of the day. Britain and France were where they were for Hitler's rise to power. Desperately trying to rebuild the militaries that they had largely dismantled since the previous war.

regarding the demands on the Germans, it was my understanding that the majority of the demands came from the French and the British were in favour of a moderately lenient stance. The French, being the most severely injured party amongst the Western Allies, won through.

As for all the good you did, Vietnam? You stopped a democratic election result, caused the deaths of many thousands of civilian, then left and within five years it was in exactly the state it would have been had you done nothing. Iraq? Completely failed to take the appropriate action, spent over a decade destroying its infrastructure then finished the job by disbanding its social structure and plunging it into civil war. You can take the bad aspects of anything and make it look worse.

The British may have more skeletons in their closet, but we've had more time to rack them up. The important thing is to try to not get any more.

Quote Reply

tigertony flaming 7/7/2007 12:11:00 PM

Are you saying that your treatment of Native Americans was not as bad as the British treatment of people?

Nope i said just the opposite!. However, what i am sick of from those who know nothing about those peaceful American Indians is calling us alone ruthless!. Truth is those indians commited plenty of brutal acts against our own as well!. What pisses me off about Europe is the fact that they only bring up what we have done to them,not what they also did to us!. I also find it quite unacceptable that those who killed far more of those American Indians "Continue to act like they before us were not responsible for killing far more then we!". Try starting with Spain,then on down that list to France,Holland,and Britain!.

"Regarding your statements on nations and empires, how do you think those nations came into being? The very formation of the USA was the result of Emperialism, just conducted across one country without the need for ships. Mexico? Artifically formed by a European colonial power out of whatever was there before. Belgium has two distinct ethnic groups who continue to spark off each other. Spain has its Basque sepratists, Russia has its Chechens

etc. Out of interest, how big is Mexico, and what happened at the Alamo."

Well now i guess there is no difference to those of Europe between forming a Nation and forming an Empire? Now i understand why those of you in Europe have started 2 World Wars,and will probably allow another!. So what empire has the USA formed? And don't say NATO, because we did not create NATO to rule anyone,more like just to keep things just as they are after you in Europe started fighting eachother again,and to prevent USSR from making their own Empire larger at your expense!. Now your question about Mexico and the Alamo only proves that you still in the 21st Century have no real understanding of America!. What i mean is Santa Anna and little Mexico attacked us at the Alamo,however unlike Europe we later cried out "Remember the Alamo" and avenged ourselves,only difference is that we did not invade all of little Mexico and call it our own,we made a deal and traded one man's life for Texas instead! Now that is a good deal, and spared countless lives on both sides of that fence. I also notice that the USA did not attack those now southern states when we 1st got them from France "We paid for them in cash!". And we also rather then start a major war with Russia "Paid for Alaska". Can Europe make such claims today? Well history proves otherwise!.

Now i list your next responses all in one lump too prove my point about Europe!

"As for what we were doing fighting the French, yes it was Empire. We were trying to stop them carving one out of mainland continent. Prior to that we were trying to retain holdings belonging to our imported nobility, while the rest of the French tried to carve out some more land at their expense.

Now number one:

Just who was already in Vietnam after WW2? Answer: Well it was indeed called French Indo China,so who got us involved after they got defeated? I guess you missed that battle called Dien Bien Phu?. Now why did we go to Vietnam in the 1st place? Well because there was a rather large empire all over Asia called "The Communist". But again, Europe likes to sugar coat and forget about them!. And as for spending

Quote Reply

paul1970 tigger 7/9/2007 3:31:01 AM

Tigger seems to have some irrational hatred of Europe.... and needs to blame them for all the worlds troubles... (even though he is of European decent) perhaps he does this to distract from all the "troubles" the the US have been causing in the last 100 years....

Quote Reply

paul1970 tigger 7/9/2007 4:10:08 AM

So Paul just how is that Europeon Union going? I notice that you Brits aren't using that Euro!. And since our presence is not needed with the USSR gone, i guess it is time to roll on home to America and let you Europeons run yourselves again? Well i wonder just how long peace in Europe would have lasted without US Nuclear Umbrella and US bases in Germany,Italy,etc,etc? Oh and btw if the USA had the same goals as Europe we would have nuked anyone who stood in our way of empire,but did we? And i wonder who gave UK lend lease and even those brutal Russians got our aid against an even bigger menace? Hell Paul the USA did not even occupy Mexico after Santa Anna attacked the Alamo,we just traded for Texas in exchange for one mans life!. And i suppose if we were like Europe we should already occupy Canada,well since their powerful military is such a threat to the USA? So i wonder who really occupied North America,South America, Canada, or Mexico in their history? Try Britain,France,Holland,and Spain,however i did not see Ireland,Germany,or Sweden!. Yeah and you know why? Because we invited them to live here, not conquered them!. Hell we have even let 12,000,000 Mexicans live here tax free!. Paul it is you in Europe who owe the USA plenty,not the other way around!. I suppose that 50 years of Cold War was won because the USSR feared the UK or France? Yeah and i wonder who bore the brunt of all those little wars we fought to prevent the next big one not started by us?

Have A Nice Day!!!

tigertony

again... you have not bothered to answer any of the points... presumably because you have no suitable response so have to change the subject....

I fail to see what the European Union has to do with the W1812??? please clarify this for me?

but following your tangent....

European Union... a bit like a bunch of independent states deciding to join up in one union... with a single voice... thought you would support that idea?

you will find several countries have nukes... and yet the US is the only one to use them in anger...

lend lease... gosh... instead of fighting the war, you pay someone else to do it for you.... bit like the Brits with the Hessians (see, I link back onto topic)

Texas.... thought that Texas didn't really want to be part of the US back then?

you tried to occupy Canada already... that was the W1812... doh!

there were plenty on Germanic and Irish in America before independence.... and Sweden had a shortlived colony (yes Sweden used to be an Empire building nation as well if you bother with history not directly involving the US) in America as well but the Dutch took it over.. another doh!

you go on about not conquering them...... and inviting them across... presumably to live in all that conquered land you took off the natives during the 19thC... tripling the size of the US in 50 years by hook or by crook...... you evil empire building expansionists...... :-)

what does Europe owe the US? you charged Britain for your help in WW2... we should have charged you for turning up late while we fought your German extended family for you..... btw... Ireland and Sweden sat that one out... in others words, thought that they didn't need to oppose the Natzi's taking over the world.... at least you did turn up eventually even if you had to be forced into it....

now I think the US are trying to make up being late for the last two wo

Quote Reply

paul1970 7/9/2007 5:07:09 AM

The US won the War of 1812. It's silly to keep reiterating the facts that have not been successfully refuted. Vide Supra. Recommended recent books that are readily available are Borneman's The War that Forged a Nation and Hickey's The War of 1812 a Forgotten Conflict.

whats silly about it....?

if somebody claims something then they should back it up.

the US did not defeat Britain. if anybody thinks they did then back it up with evidence...

the US settled with Britain when they could not achieve their aim to drive the British out of America.. that the British had stopped impressment had nothing to do with the US and everything to do with the war in Europe not needing it anymore.

Paul

Quote Reply

paul1970 7/9/2007 6:00:37 AM

whats silly about it....?

if somebody claims something then they should back it up.

the US did not defeat Britain. if anybody thinks they did then back it up with evidence...

Paul

Quote Reply

paul1970 7/9/2007 7:01:36 AM

"Yes, England has a checkered past. No, it's not as bad as plenty out there. Yes, it could have been better. Would you rather a Spanish or French empire?"

Well now see you don't have any idea just who i am do you? I am the man who understands that there should be no empires at all "Just Britain,Belgium,Canada,China,France,Russia,Spain,Mexico,USA,and All Nations to stay just where they already are!". Why do i need an empire? I just need a home,however some i can buy are better then others,lol!

Out of interest, what do you mean by this?

"Well i at the least can admit that our treatment of our own indians or rebels was not just as barbaric as those English i insult!"

If you mean what I think you do, you forgot the horrors visited upon loyalists by rebels

No actually Einstein i meant quite the opposite! We in our very short history commited our share,but we also changed our nation far sooner then you!. And in less then 100 years we fought our one and only civil war, and freed our slaves,we also managed to side on the lesser of the 2 evils twice,and for 50 years we have sown freedom where there was none after at was over!. So what did Britain fight for in France those other countless years? And what did they fight for here in America then? Answer: EMPIRE!. Far too many accuse the USA of being the New Roman Empire "When we have actually done more then anyone to just keep our nation,and all others free, including Britain,France,and even Germany!". And just think we have done all this good for the world, and not blown most of it up,and all in our short 231 years!. Now can any of you from anywhere in the world claim that?. Oh and btw,i never actually meant that you Brits were as bad as those Nazi, that's why we joined your side!. However, since my family came from there, i will make one point about Europe then.

Just where was Britain and France for those 3+ years leading up to Hitler's rise in Germany's Government? Well i mean since none of you 3 hesitate to attack each other thru out your history!. I guess you did not read Mein Kampf? Well my grand dad did, and was smart enough to leave in 1934!. Too bad he never came back from Germany later, after going back to finish the job you should have done yourself years before!. And if i remember just after WW1 our president warned you both about making too many demands on Germany,but again you had to ignore him,and look what happened next!. Kinda reminds me of most of Europe today, thinking that Iran will not soon give a nuke to a terrorist or a holocaust to those Jew's again!. Well i would not wait those 3 + years again if i were us all!.

tigertony

baring in mind that you carry the 1000s of years of history of Europe across to America with the settlers then you cannot claim to have done anything any quicker as those decendants and founders of your country start at the same place as those Europeans... so you start in 1776 at the same base as those other countries....

some things you did quicker and other things you lagged behind.

you claim not to be empire building and yet bought or fought your way across the continent... this is empire building! what about the Spanish-American war???? this extended US possesions overseas...... imperialistic empire building..... you are no better than those in Europe that you decry....

American empire building is similar to the EIC in the 18/18C... money, trade and if that doesn't work.... force.

you ask where Britain and Fran

Quote Reply

tigertony Pauli 7/9/2007 12:32:04 PM

1} Hey Paul i suppose the USA could not of taken Canada after WW1? Or i guess we could not of taken out Spain after the Spanish/American war either? Yeah funny we did not land there,we pay for our airline ticket and hotel stay!. Oh and if i remember we may have provoked Spain, but they still attacked us 1st!. Now who crushed that Spanish Armada long before we or those Spanish sank the Maine?. And btw,do you actually have any real clue why we where in Cuba then? Well those Cubans living on Cuba where rebelling against their Spanish Masters!. And funny we do not rule Cuba today and neither do the Spanish!. However perhaps we should, but it is still run by the beard instead!.

2} Hey Paul i suppose the USA could not of taken Mexico after Santa Anna or even today still? Hell Pauli Girl we don't even invade and occupy Mexico while 12,000,000+ have invaded us!. And we don't do as they do today and shoot them as they cross no man's land on their own southern borders!. It would sure be in our own best interest to take over all of Mexico and make these Mexicans real Americans "But we however do just the opposite, let them live here tax free!". Oh and btw again, just whom attacked whom at that Alamo?. And as for fighting Civil Wars? Well just how many did you English fight against the Scots,Welsh,Irish,and your own nation and troops?

3} Hey Paul did your grand dad leave America to go back to Germany because he could do nothing in Germany about those nazi bastard's destroying the Democracy we helped give them in the 1st place? So Pauli since the USA packed our bags and went home, who really let Hitler take over and destroy that Democracy we helped give them? And just who late or not came back and insured they are still a Democracy today?. And btw, the USA did not seek to humilate and degrade those Germans after we beat them, that was your choice to make since we went home!.

4} Hey Paul did our huge US Armed Forces leave the UK after both wars were won? Yeah i bet if we wished to conquer you instead of giving our US taxpayers paycheck to you instead "You could have made us leave?". So btw just how much aid has that EU given to the world including nations we do not even get along with? Well we gave 300,000,000,000 this past year alone! How bout you?. Yeah and i wonder just how much the EU was forced to spend to keep USSR from taking you all? And it was not much, because after WW1 you proved that shrinking your military so soon after a major war was the better strategy to deal with an enemy!. Well we made that mistake once,but the same mistake was not made twice!. So i wonder why our bases and large military have managed to stop a repeat again anywhere? And as for why we did not come sooner? Well if i remember the USA just went thru a little thing called the Great Depression and our people just got done leaping out their windows!. And btw,you Brits should know just what it costs to mount a large amphibious operation and move them from one side of the Atlantic to the other!.

5} Did we send the Irish or incite Scottish rebels to disrupt the UK? Nope, but you sure did send plenty of North American indians to wipe out our seed!. And i sure remember England using tactics like taking a man's new Scottish wife and bringing her home to that English Lord's bed to wipe out their seed as well!. "If we can't drive them out we will breed them out instead!". Wow that sounds just like Hitler's dreams of Aryan Supremacy, only it was not those Germans doing it!. And as for those Irish? Well who sits in a place called Northern Ireland still today? So Pauli how bout getting back to England where you belong? Maybe the USA should incite those Irish like you did to us hey?

6} Hey Paul i wonder why no nation has used that nuke option since we dropped those bombs in front of the world? Well duh, i guess it could have nothing to do with the world understanding the futile nature of using such weapons again now could it?. Yeah, you in Europe are great at One Dimensional Thinking, and telling only one side to every story!

7} Sorry Pauli Girl but history proves that is indeed you who never can keep the peace or be satisfied with having what God has already given!. Opp's thats right those poor peasents had to leave England in the 1st place because of your nations policy on religious freedom,or should i say lack there of!. Well at the least the USA did not fight it's own over who was a Catholic or Protestant for countless years!. Oh but we did gather up some and tried them as witches because of our belief,and that was not only wrong,but just plain silly!. So why did you spend all them years killing fellow Christians? Opp's i forgot about Richard the Lionheart and them 1000 years of Crusades

Quote Reply

Ehran 7/9/2007 12:36:16 PM

tigertony:

You are aware that "The Patriot" is not a historically accurate film?

I look forward to seeing your evidence that the British held their Empire together through Nazi-style terror tactics.

tony's grasp of history seems to be nearly totally out of whack with reality.

his assertion that the british relied on terror as a method of controlling their empire is so ludicrous it really does make you wonder just what he's been smoking lately.

Quote Reply

tigertony Ehran 7/9/2007 1:19:05 PM

Hey Ehran just because you wish to sugar coat the real truth that those English have used equal amounts of terror as the nazi or communist,don't change the fact that they have!. I think it is you who should be researching real truth and not live in your fantasy world!. And as for smoking? Well i would not, and only drink a beer on occasion!. And i, unlike you, will admit that we have used terror as well to maintain our nation!. Now i suggest you prove that they did not,because i will send you plenty too prove they did. Just give me your e-mail and i will send plenty you have probably never read or seen!.People only see what they wish to see or read,not what is truth!. Fortunatly for me i have spent most of my life searching for real truth about us all, and view things from all sides of truth,right or wrong!. What would make you believe that if those Germans,Russians,Japanese,Chinese,etc,etc could carry out such evil deeds that those mighty British could or would not have as well? Again another fine,fine example of One Dimensional Thinking!

tigertony

Quote Reply

PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 NEXT