The British defeat in America -

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Subject: The British defeat in America -
Herc the Merc 5/29/2007 8:27:07 PM

Perhaps one of the few major wars lost by Britain and that too in its own territory with vast ties by blood. How is the American war potrayed in English history books-- a civil war, liberation war, anarchy???? Its perhaps odd that Britain lost America, one of its few territories that it had connections with in bloodline. Even Britain and India parted ways with a handshake and cup of tea. The Yanks broke the tea crates in Boston Harbor and had bloody good fight.

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paul1970 9/27/2007 4:59:50 AM

the hessian mercenaries were part of the king's response to the shortage of funds for the royal army. considering they were the king's subjects from his german territories i've often wondered why they are always referred to as mercs.

That's another thing we colonials don't get. The whole Euro royalty scene. One wonders why an English king has German territories. Yes I know why - house of Hanover - but the incest (figurative and literal) between all the royal houses is real good chucks. Habsburg lip anyone?

one could wonder why a guy in Washington holds power over territory well over a 1000 miles away from him not borfdering his original homeland... :-)

If I understood you I would answer, but all I can really do is watch you squirm

Although more substantive critiques might be made. For instance, giving Bonaparte Elba instead of some fine Chinese lead, because some king or czar was his brother-in-law or what-have-you. But hey, it wasn't my ancestors dying like flies during the 100 Days.

you not understanding says more about you than me.... :-)

but Bob seems to have put it at a level that so should be able to understand. not sure why you did a "Tony" and went of on a tangent about Napoleon???

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Nichevo 9/27/2007 5:14:00 AM

you not understanding says more about you than me.... :-)

I could mock the writing but I will admit I was baffled by comparisons with HI/AKm which were legally acquired through purchase/no more remarkable than various UK ocean flyspecks. I mean, Wake Is. and Johnson Atoll are equally suspect, I suppose? Just exactly the same thing as Britain owning a piece of Germany, or of France if you can take all that Normandy business seriously. Our colonial possessions aren't the sequelae of continental powers trying to eat each other, quite so much...

but Bob seems to have put it at a level that so should be able to understand. not sure why you did a "Tony" and went of on a tangent about Napoleon???

Shall I mock your confusion? No, instead I will clarify: my previous dig was at European royalty and their failures. What about Napoleon? Napoleon was spared and given little Elba, instead of being hanged or caged, because of the sentimental extended-family feelings of...European royalty.

I trust you're not GLAD for the Hundred Days?

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Nichevo 9/27/2007 5:20:37 AM

Oh, and the 'Chinese lead' was a joke about how all our imports from China seem to be adulterated with lead or melamine or whatever...

Let me know if anything else escaped you, I'm here to help

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paul1970 9/27/2007 6:07:18 AM

1} Well Ehran i have actually given my real name,real ship i served on,real town i reside in,my yahoo id,as well as my e-mail,and my real jobs i do!. Seems i have nothing to hide from you, or anyone else. Now i would suggest you spend the hours in the SP archive and learn my real name!. Now i have never once called you a liar or unintelligent,and even if your English skills looked like Chinese "I would not insult you for that". Seems that's all anyone can really prove about me.

2}Now just who do you or Bob go to church for? And who did you build it for? Well sounds to me like you built yours to England,not GOD!. And so i don't have everyone calling me a racist again "That means the Pope or anyone else who calls himself the head of GOD'S CHURCH!. And Ehran why dont you show me once that Christ ever called himself Royal or King of King's? Afterall you are the Expert!. Oh and i dont worship serpents "I reveal them".

3} Funny, i read what i wrote, and i will be damned if i can find one single line that i called you "ROYAL". Now i don't like to insult someones uptake but "LEARN TO READ". However Ehran, this does help prove my theory that you suffer from "Turnip Titis".

Oh and Ehran, i think you should check out the date i posted that picture of my ship to Bob!. Actually the theme and point of that post was quite accurate for that day! What a "TURNIP". And i have, after reading thru this entire post, not found one single thing you proved wrong. Like when i said those Red Coats lit up us Americans alive,seems that they did afterall. Just like when people make stupid remarks like "The Boars could not sustain themselves and the British could not take care of them". Well truth is that those Boars could not sustain themselves because you Red Coats stole or burned everything they owned!. And you did not say that Ehran,but someone sure did!. Yet i get insulted and called a liar?

tigertony

i do NOT care what your real name is nor what ship you served on etc because they are utterly irrelevant to what's being discussed.

i also have no idea what's with your fixation with root vegetables but i cannot do anything but assume that's some rather feeble attempt at insulting me. honest to god tony been talking to people over the internet and it's predecessor for many years now and i've never been called a turnip before. which is one reason i lean toward you not being a native english speaker.

i don't go to church tony and i certainly never had a hand in building one. my experiences with the good churchgoing types have been pretty much universally negative matter of fact. the church of england was just another example of how important the Queen is to so many people. please do not reference jesus in this any more as he is again utterly irrelevant to the discussion.

Boers not Boars. one group are people and the other are male swine. i've followed some of the links to sites you've posted and found them pretty much to be trash. just because someone puts up a website doesn't make what's on it true. it's also unlikely that a person who puts up a website like that is going to link out to anyone who disagrees with his perverse

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Nichevo 9/27/2007 8:34:02 AM

please keep Jesus and religion out of this thread.... they have no place here. if you want to talk about religion then put it on a seperate thread where I will happily discuss.

Boy I can't seem to stop picking on you...

You really want to live and die by this? Jesus and religion having NO place in a discussion of the British defeat in America? None at all? I'm sure you're a fab modernistic atheist like all your smart set but you do need to look through other eyes than thine own...

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paul1970 9/27/2007 10:10:39 AM

please keep Jesus and religion out of this thread.... they have no place here. if you want to talk about religion then put it on a seperate thread where I will happily discuss.

its all about the relevance...

Tony bringing up religion where he has has nothing to do with the point of the thread or others raining on him now.. I don't think it adds anything other than to try and add complexity and confuse the issue.

I am fine with you trying to defend him but please look at the statements he has made earlier in the thread and you will see why he is being hounded.

and if you want to talk about religion then go ahead... on a different thread.... :-)

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Asymmetric Care to start a thread and back that claim up? 9/27/2007 10:16:16 AM

Unfortunately, America possesses a population that is largely uneducated. Tony just falls into that 80% figure.

That is a disturbing figure... if true.

I am aware of the excellence of US institutions at the sharp end of academia and the failings of the system to the mass public and the disadvantaged. While there may (or may not) be an education deficit between other Western nations and the US I find comparing tony to the average American overly harsh since we are dealing here with not just a complete idiot, that has yet to show any grasp or understanding of any historical matter nor any other matter but also a man who spouts his bigoted world view as absolute truth, failing to admit even the slightest fault when proven wrong by other more informed posters.

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Nichevo 9/27/2007 11:31:55 AM

please keep Jesus and religion out of this thread.... they have no place here. if you want to talk about religion then put it on a seperate thread where I will happily discuss.

its all about the relevance...

I can generate some relevance when the head of state is the head of the church (which church was created specifically to help Henry VIII get his jollies) and America was settled by dissident Puritans, its Constitution written by Deists... will skip it if you concede the point arguendo.

It is relevant to Tony - it obviously affects his worldview. And you engage him at a personal level - you can hardly be accused of sticking to the issues. You can stomp on his sensibilities all you like, but it is not the sort of thing calculated to make him give up. I mean, has it so far? It would be so easy for you to maintain at least a facade of respect, of politesse. If he is so stupid, you should be able to defeat him without personal abuse.

WRT religion, his replies in terms of the humility of Christ vs. earthly pretensions are compelling, in the context of a Christian religion. They probably much mirror debates of the Cromwellian Era. And the sovereign is of some importance to you; even if you discard the relevance of the Church personally, you won't take that away from her, I reckon.

Do you know, have you learned, to what Christian sect Tony subscribes? Would you know enough to tailor your arguments accordingly? Just as an intellectual exercise, I mean, not that you would CARE, but a clever debater would factor it into his calculus. I bet you care a lot whether Terrorist X is Shia, Sunni, Alawite, Wahabbi, Salafi, whatever; that you find relevance in that.

I am fine with you trying to defend him but please look at the statements he has made earlier in the thread and you will see why he is being hounded.

I am not entirely without sympathy. I admit that his style of writing can be tiring with all the CAPS and !!! and SO FORTH!!!!!111!!oneone!!11!!eleven!!, that an unkind person could call him unsophisticated, and that he probably couldn't perform your job function (any more than you could perform his). I'm sure you would see fit to continue the constructive criticism.

But I don't see charity, Christian or otherwise, in your responses. I see somebody who should pick on someone his own size. I see condescension, verging on superciliousness - I see looking down without reaching out.

Probably foolish of me, it is reflex - and where is my badge from the Decorum Police, but here I am somehow trying a bit to play peacemaker, and all I ask is for y'all to dial the incivility down to ten. If that's too much to ask...well, if you're feeling froggy, jump!

I agree this thread is a mess. I'm sorry that it didn't evoke amity on either side, Herc is a virtual Eris.

I have to say that I found a number of comments, early and late, a bit hard to swallow. As would any American worth his salt. And nemo me impune lacessit, don't you know. (80%, yet. I'm still seething. I'm not sure if it's worse for you to say that gratuitously or to mean it.)

Maybe in England everybody takes it and likes it, that would be another cultural difference; if that's egalitarian that's fine, but it is not admissible of subordination; that is, I can't accept th

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paul1970 9/27/2007 11:41:20 AM

you not understanding says more about you than me.... :-)

but Bob seems to have put it at a level that so should be able to understand. not sure why you did a "Tony" and went of on a tangent about Napoleon???

if you go back through the thread you will see that you are covering old ground....

America expands by fair means or foul.

what about the American - Spanish war and gains there...????

what about the attempted invasion of Canada? (something that Tony did comment on......)

the US was just as expansionist as any European power but did in the name of the president rather than monarch.

as for Napoleon... sure an man of your intelligence can work out why they cut a deal and gave him exile rather than fight down the streets of Paris to final victory....

Paul

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Nichevo 9/27/2007 11:43:36 AM

Asymmetric, thank you.

I think

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