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Subject: Litvenenko
cosmonaut    5/23/2007 4:48:06 PM
Putting political bias aside, if one is able to, quite obviously Litvenenko deserved to die, and got what was coming to him. Can you imagine a former American, British, or Israeli agent being "permitted" to defect and spill their beans? And endanger their former colleagues? Never. Those counties would have terminated the threat in a heartbeat.
 
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cosmonaut    flaming knives   5/25/2007 11:47:57 AM
Not as bad?  We start coups, overthrow nations, and annihilate swaths of opponents.  Are you for real?
 
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flamingknives       5/28/2007 4:08:11 PM
I am, but I am getting an increasing feeling that I haven't got a clue as to what you think you are gibbering on about.

From a conventional Western European point of view; kidnap, trial and imprisonment is considered to be less of a crime than premeditated murder, using a method liable to endanger a large number of other people. Therefore, what happened to Vanunu is less of a crime than what happened to Litvinenko. Therefore it was deserving of less outcry. Do you comprehend this statement?
 
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cosmonaut       5/29/2007 2:47:37 PM
Comprehend?  Yes, I do.  Thanks for asking.

It doesn't matter that one approach is 'seen' to be more acceptable than another.   The guy was TAKEN OUT - is that so far fetched?  His list of enemies is probably incalculable.  If he was directly endangering his former comrades lives, they would have had ample motive and cause to liquidate the idiot.   

Where do you live, btw?  Do you think your country's governments have ever disposed of a threat?  It's fun to pretend to be shocked at what happened to Litvenenko, but I am not interested in such inane polemics.
 
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flamingknives       5/29/2007 3:25:29 PM
My understanding is that it is vastly more important how any given approach is seen than the actual outcome.

From the Russian side, it probably looks like a good deterrant, makes them feel strong. From the Western European countries, it looks like Russia is sliding back into the bad old days of communism and the all-powerful and completely corrupt state.

In those comparable cases involving people west of the old iron curtain, when an ex-agent started blabbing, he was arrested and imprisoned or otherwise discredited. Overt assassination seems to be the preference of less sophisticated governments.

IF he was endangering his ex-colleagues lives? If how? What did he say that was so dangerous? Or was it just that he was threatening comrade Stalin's grip on power?

Am I shocked at what happened to him? Not particularly, considering Russian behaviour in other matters. I am somewhat dismayed that it is a continuing litany of people killed for criticising the state, and that there is a Russian law expressly permitting, or even requiring, it. For a country of such undoubted promise, it's all rather sad that they are continually betrayed by their ruling classes.

Do the British assassinate people? Probably, although not often. Name one such victim outside war. I can't.

I think that it is fun to suggest that the law should apply to the government as much as it applies to the people. 
 
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Armchair Private    Very silly   5/29/2007 3:50:21 PM

Comprehend?  Yes, I do.  Thanks for asking.


It doesn't matter that one approach is 'seen' to be more acceptable than another.   The guy was TAKEN OUT - is that so far fetched?  His list of enemies is probably incalculable.  If he was directly endangering his former comrades lives, they would have had ample motive and cause to liquidate the idiot.   

Where do you live, btw?  Do you think your country's governments have ever disposed of a threat?  It's fun to pretend to be shocked at what happened to Litvenenko, but I am not interested in such inane polemics.
TAKEN OUT!!!! who's been watching 24 again?

"I WILL POSSESS INFINITE PORRIDGE AND ALL THOSE BULLIES AT SCHOOL WHO USED TO CALL ME 'SHORTY SHORTY SPOT SPOT' WILL FEAR ME NOW HA HA HA HA HAAAA" - As Putin was over heard saying to his neighbour over the hedge just the other day.

If the Russian state killed him then they did it for one of two reasons presumably:

1) as a warning and threat to others, "you are not safe anywhere" - this is lent credence by the absurd way they did it, no one but a state could access that amount of Polonium as I understand it.
2) To shut him up personally, - bit rubbish then cos it took him so long to die.

In the short term this may have some small advantage for the Russians, but in the long term? The entire West (if it wasn't aware already) just noticed that the Russian state isn't quite as nice as we'd have hoped it might have been by now.


 
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cosmonaut       5/29/2007 7:44:04 PM
I'm glad we've noticed that they're not as nice as we hoped.  Checks and balances.  That's definitely a check.
 
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Heorot       5/30/2007 3:05:46 PM



Comprehend?  Yes, I do.  Thanks for asking.






It doesn't matter that one approach is 'seen' to be more acceptable than another.   The guy was TAKEN OUT - is that so far fetched?  His list of enemies is probably incalculable.  If he was directly endangering his former comrades lives, they would have had ample motive and cause to liquidate the idiot.   



Where do you live, btw?  Do you think your country's governments have ever disposed of a threat?  It's fun to pretend to be shocked at what happened to Litvenenko, but I am not interested in such inane polemics.


TAKEN OUT!!!! who's been watching 24 again?

"I WILL POSSESS INFINITE PORRIDGE AND ALL THOSE BULLIES AT SCHOOL WHO USED TO CALL ME 'SHORTY SHORTY SPOT SPOT' WILL FEAR ME NOW HA HA HA HA HAAAA" - As Putin was over heard saying to his neighbour over the hedge just the other day.

If the Russian state killed him then they did it for one of two reasons presumably:

1) as a warning and threat to others, "you are not safe anywhere" - this is lent credence by the absurd way they did it, no one but a state could access that amount of Polonium as I understand it.
2) To shut him up personally, - bit rubbish then cos it took him so long to die.

In the short term this may have some small advantage for the Russians, but in the long term? The entire West (if it wasn't aware already) just noticed that the Russian state isn't quite as nice as we'd have hoped it might have been by now.


Polonium is not that hard to get. Check out this product that's available on the internet
h*tp://www.optcorp.com/product.aspx?pid=1723



 
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Armchair Private       5/30/2007 5:39:59 PM







Comprehend?  Yes, I do.  Thanks for asking.












It doesn't matter that one approach is 'seen' to be more acceptable than another.   The guy was TAKEN OUT - is that so far fetched?  His list of enemies is probably incalculable.  If he was directly endangering his former comrades lives, they would have had ample motive and cause to liquidate the idiot.   







Where do you live, btw?  Do you think your country's governments have ever disposed of a threat?  It's fun to pretend to be shocked at what happened to Litvenenko, but I am not interested in such inane polemics.




TAKEN OUT!!!! who's been watching 24 again?

"I WILL POSSESS INFINITE PORRIDGE AND ALL THOSE BULLIES AT SCHOOL WHO USED TO CALL ME 'SHORTY SHORTY SPOT SPOT' WILL FEAR ME NOW HA HA HA HA HAAAA" - As Putin was over heard saying to his neighbour over the hedge just the other day.

If the Russian state killed him then they did it for one of two reasons presumably:

1) as a warning and threat to others, "you are not safe anywhere" - this is lent credence by the absurd way they did it, no one but a state could access that amount of Polonium as I understand it.
2) To shut him up personally, - bit rubbish then cos it took him so long to die.

In the short term this may have some small advantage for the Russians, but in the long term? The entire West (if it wasn't aware already) just noticed that the Russian state isn't quite as nice as we'd have hoped it might have been by now.



Polonium is not that hard to get. Check out this product that's available on the internet
h*tp://www.optcorp.com/product.aspx?pid=1723



I was under the impression that the volume used was magnitudes greater than what is commercially available anywhere.

 
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Heorot       5/31/2007 3:13:08 PM
No,

as I understand it, the quantity used was vey small. Polonium 210 is harmless when outside the body because the radiation cannot penetrate the skin. It's a different story when ingested. Polonium 210 has chemical properties similar to selenium, which is a trace element that the body requires. The human body absorbs the polonium as if it were selenium and it gets into the cells of the body where it destroys them.


 
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flamingknives       5/31/2007 3:36:43 PM
And yet:

From here

Handling

Polonium-210 is very dangerous to handle in even milligram or microgram amounts, and special equipment and strict control is necessary. Damage arises from the complete absorption of the energy of the alpha particle into tissue.

The maximum permissible body burden for ingested polonium is only 0.03 microcuries, which represents a particle weighing only 6.8 x 10-12 g. Weight for weight it is about 2.5 x 1011 times as toxic as hydrocyanic acid. The maximum allowable concentration for soluble polonium compounds in air is about 2 x 10-11microcuries/cm

 
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