Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
United Kingdom Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: Britain may replace Trident--
Herc the Merc    11/26/2006 5:29:41 PM
NUKEWARS Britain To Unveil Plans To Replace Nuclear Missile System File photo: Trident missile launch. by Staff Writers London (AFP) Nov 22, 2006 Britain is to publish proposals by the end of the year on how to replace its ageing nuclear deterrent Trident missiles, Prime Minister Tony Blair told lawmakers Monday. Blair confirmed a question from the leader of the smaller opposition Liberal Democrats Menzies Campbell that the government's position on whether to maintain the Trident missile system would be set out by the turn of the year. He also said he was "sure" lawmakers would get a chance to vote on the issue. "I believe it is important that we maintain the independent nuclear deterrent," he told Campbell during the weekly "prime minister's questions" in the lower chamber House of Commons. The issue of whether to scrap Trident -- which will become obsolete with the four Vanguard class submarines that carry them in the mid-2020s -- is a deeply divisive issue among Blair's governing Labour Party. Scrapping nuclear weapons -- and also nuclear power -- was a totemic issue for the left-wing party in the 1980s but the policy was dropped before the 1997 general election, when Blair's revamped centre-left "New Labour" was elected. Instead, its manifesto pledged to retain Trident. Blair's likely successor, finance minister Gordon Brown, has previously said he, too, is in favour of keeping Britain's nuclear deterrent. But a number of senior ministers, including Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett, reportedly have concerns about it. Anti-nuclear campaigners are currently lobbying hard against any replacement, including via an online petition on the prime minister's own website. By Wednesday, there had been more than 2,000 signatories supporting the motion: "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to champion the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, by not replacing the Trident nuclear weapons system."
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Armchair Private    Flaw in the logic?   3/16/2007 4:14:00 PM
1. We have had Nuclear weapons for 50 odd years acting as a deterrant.
 
2. We have never been attacked with Nuclear weapons.
 
3. We never will be attacked with Nuclear weapons.
 
4. We don't need Nuclear weapons.
 
?
 
Quote    Reply

Armchair Private    Flaw in the logic?   3/16/2007 4:37:12 PM

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6448173.stm
" href_cetemp=">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6448173.stm
">link
 

Unfortunately I was unable to follow the proceedings and can't comment on the quality of the debate. I was fed up with the simplistic arguments used by both sides on programmes like Newsnight and Question Time. Nobody asked the questions that were on my mind such as:

 

Would we be better off if we phased out our nuclear weapons and adopted a less interventionist position like Germany? How precisely would we be damaged?
 
Better off - yes, in £ terms. Germany is less interventionist not by choice, but because of the horrors of WW2, the complete annihilation of the German state, and the forced de-armament and subjugation of the nation by the victorious allies. Your question here might be better put as "can mankind live in peace" I firmly believe that I can, that you probably can and that the Germans can, along with the rest of the west. Do you beleive that some of the states around the world that are now developing or have N weapons can? Have they been though an enlightenment? Are their opinions about the world subject entirely to what the the state tells them to beleive through propaganda? have they the same value for human life as us? Life expectancy in russia is 50 odd for men, the chinese execute 1,000s every year for 'crimes', the N.Koreans as recently as (what?) 2001 used the starvation and death of millions of their own citizens as a bargaining chip... against the US and S. Korea and Japan.

 

How independant is our nuclear deterrent. How much influence does the possible threat of withdrawing support for our missiles give the US over our foreign policy?
 
I have no idea, but I'd be surprised if the American's can't stop it hitting new york. Indeterminate, My impression is that the whole power political elite of the UK, politicians, civil servants etc, go weak at the knees in front of the americans, it doesn't occur to then to fight for our national interest so the americans never have to bother playing hard ball. Remember we (UK) have leverage over them (US) too, again i know only whats in the press but remember most of the sig int from Europe, and lots of it from the rest of the world that the americans benefit from both strategically, and commercially (if you beleive the european parliamnet that is) is placed on British territory, bet thats worth more the americans than what we pay them for trident...

How does our close alliance/dependance on the US affect our relationship with the rest of the EU? Is this unequal relationship still in our interest?

Swings and round abouts, we do gain in europe because of our close relationship with the US especially now that we have the 10 acsescion states, we are widely considered to have thebest negotiating team in europe, we get a good deal from them, or rather they make the best of a deal that is bad for us financially.

How would our position/influence within the EU be affected if we left France as the sole European nuclear power?

It would decrease our influence, more importantly we'd have no excuse left to remain on the security council, other nations would be very much less interested in persuading us of their point of view (you scratch my back I'll scratch yours), and trying to influence (or buy) ours.

Was there any possibilty of buying into the French M52 missile programme. How much would it cost? Would the French be interested? Could this give us a genuinely independant capability? How would the split from the USA affect the UK?
 
Yes, same as the yanks (if i were the french, ou would after all be the only supplier, unless the UK buys their weapons off of Israel? I presume we definitly don't want to buy some off of Pakistan or India?) with considerably less capability.

Your thoughts please?
 
Good questions.



 
Quote    Reply

brit cadet       2/22/2009 5:30:09 PM



If the silo's are in the US midwest we can count on the Americans. (emphasis added.)

I can assure readers that yours truly, an American lawyer
who lives in the US midwest, in coordination with his professional contacts will
exhaust every conceivable legal, political, media and protest mechanism to prevent
the UK or any other cheapskate socialist country from foisting its foreign WMD
on midwest soil so the country may save a few quid on defense.


Britain stands a better chance of resurrecting
Beagle 2 and rendering it sufficiently operable to explore Mars. 


v^2





your gonna really regret saying that if it happens
 
Quote    Reply

HERALD1357    An oldie but a psychotic suggestion just the same.   2/22/2009 5:48:53 PM






By Wednesday, there had been more than 2,000 signatories supporting the motion: "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to champion the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, by not replacing the Trident nuclear weapons system."





Sure.... and why don't we go handing out big sticks and bend over while we're at it.



 




Yimmy, Do you think a SLBM force will reduce the number of UK dead in any conflict during which our enemy uses WMD?  UK taxpayers pay for it.  Lets see the defense industry or perhaps you justify the investement in SLBM and SSBN tech based on what it does for the person who pays for it!

Against the Russians, Chinese and French.  I reckon if the UK buys a selection of decommissioned silo's in the American midwest or builds new ones in Falklands / South Georgia and stuffs them full of MIRV ICBM's it might be the cheapest and most maintainable delievery solution and it'll give us an equally independant and survivable deterant to the SSBN force.  We can spend some of the money saved on subs to patrol around the silo's.  If the silo's do get taken out by first strike then you can bet you bottom dollar that the US ICBM's will already be on route to vapourise the subjects of whoever launched the first strike.

Against the threats we face now a true deterent would be a bio weapon which targets people according to their genetic heritigeFielding and pointedly testing such a set of weapons (say by releasing it upon them with a payload that merely makes them smell bad) might actually deter them.

Fancy chating about how independant the bit that goes off with a big bang is.  That could do with a close look before we bend over to the tune of Yankee Doodle Dandy.


1. The US will not tolerate foreign nuclear weapons on OUR soil that WE do not control. Why would we accept what Britain will not?
2. The US will decide for what we will risk megadeaths. Why would we accept what Britain will not?
3. In red and underlined. Unbelievable. Why would a sane man even entertain such despicable evil and call that credible?
 
 

 
 
Quote    Reply

HERALD1357    It is a crater.   2/22/2009 5:54:23 PM







If the silo's are in the US midwest we can count on the Americans. (emphasis added.)




I can assure readers that yours truly, an American lawyer

who lives in the US midwest, in coordination with his professional contacts will

exhaust every conceivable legal, political, media and protest mechanism to prevent

the UK or any other cheapskate socialist country from foisting its foreign WMD

on midwest soil so the country may save a few quid on defense.




Britain stands a better chance of resurrecting

Beagle 2 and rendering it sufficiently operable to explore Mars. 




v^2











your gonna really regret saying that if it happens

BEAGLE 2

SPLAT.
 
 
 

 
 
Quote    Reply
PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics