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Subject: Replace SSBNs with Land Launched Nuclear Weapons
streaky bacon    9/25/2006 4:15:50 AM
As some sources suggest that a new class of SSBNs with any associated missile system is likely to cost upwards to £25 Billion, would it not make more sense to simply develop a few missiles silos somewhere in the Scottish Highlands. Surely just the fact that we have such weapons ready to fire, be a deterrent to any would be aggressors!!!!!
 
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flamingknives       9/30/2006 1:25:48 PM
1) There is no such thing as a tactical nuclear weapon. All nuclear weapons are, by definition, strategic.

2) You need a number, possibly four, of subs to guarantee one boat ready at all times.

3) The deterrent must be credible, therefore it must be able to achieve whatever threats you make with it. You can scale down the threat relative to your capability, but you can't scale up.


 
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EssexBoy    Astutes & M51   9/30/2006 2:23:01 PM

Although this might be a cheaper option I really can't see it happening for several reasons.
 
Firstly, I am not sure if BAe are capable of designing a suitably stretched astute. They completely ballsed-up the original project and had to get american designers in to complete the subs. I doubt the americans would be willing to help us out again if we had just kicked away one of the pillars of the UK/USA alliance. So presumably we'd have to ask the French for help.
 
Secondly, I believe we are currently dependant upon the USA for the technology and the systems relating to the firing of the missiles. Again, if we stopped using their missiles this transfer would stop and we'd have to go cap in hand to the French.
 
Thirdly, we are to a large degree dependant upon the USA for the design of our warheads. I believe US companies (Lockheed Martin) are heavily involved in the UK's atomic weapon research centre (I think they part own the place). If this participation were to end we'd have to ask the French for help in designing our warheads as well.
 
So all in all this plan would do two things: save us some money and; switch our dependancy from the USA to France.
 
I think most of our political establishment would prefer the current situation. 
 
For what it's worth I think we should heed the words of Corelli Barnet - a man who relies on a rich and ruthless patron enjoys less true freedom than a poor man who lives humbly within his means - time to take this Swiss option; keep quiet and keep our heads down for a while. :)


 
 
 
 
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flamingknives       9/30/2006 2:40:31 PM
Lockheed Martin UK runs the AWE - the site and logistics. The engineers and physicists at AWE are British.
 
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EssexBoy    UK independance?   9/30/2006 3:26:12 PM

Apologies for the factual error, Lockheed Martin (UK) (a wholly owned subsidiary of the US parent company) has a third share in the consortium that runs the UK's AWE.

The extract below comes from the the Commons Defence Committee's Eighth report "The Future of the UK's Strategic Nuclear Deterrant" and presents both sides of the independance argument. The full report can be found at:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmdfence/986/98607.htm



4  The independence of the UK's Strategic Nuclear Deterrent

66. The public debate over the future of the UK's strategic nuclear deterrent should address:

  • the independence of the UK's current system; and
  • the operational and diplomatic impact of any potential dependency on the United States of any future UK nuclear deterrent.

67. We heard a range of conflicting opinions about the degree to which the UK's current strategic nuclear deterrent represented an independent system.

Potential dependencies on the United States

68. Some witnesses to our inquiry questioned whether the UK's nuclear deterrent was genuinely independent. Witnesses pointed to a range of technical and operational dependencies of the UK's Trident system upon the United States and suggested that such dependencies fundamentally detracted from the UK's independence at a international political and diplomatic level.

69. The warhead: Greenpeace told us that the UK warhead fitted to the Trident II D5 missile is a direct copy of the US W76 warhead; that the arming, fusing and firing system used by the UK was designed by the US Sandia Laboratory and was "almost certainly procured from the USA"; that the neutron generator used on UK warheads was manufactured in the USA and was acquired "off the shelf"; and that the re-entry body shell, which contains the warhead, was purchased by the UK from the United States.[57]

70. The missile: Dan Plesch, of the School of Oriental and African Studies, told us that the Trident II D5 missile was designed and manufactured entirely in the United States; that the UK did not own its Trident missiles in any meaningful sense, that they were, in effect, leased from the United States and held in a communal pool at the US Strategic Weapons facility and were not identifiably British; that servicing of the missiles was conducted exclusively by the United States at King's Bay, Georgia; and that the Mark 6 guidance system used on the UK's Trident missiles was designed and made in the United States by Charles Stark Draper Laboratories.[58]

71. The platform: Dominick Jenkins, of Greenpeace, told us that although the UK's Vanguard-class SSBN submarines were designed and built in the UK, many aspects of the design "are copied from US submarines and many components are bought from the USA"; that in order to assure the accuracy of the missiles, the exact position of the UK's submarines had to be precisely determined, that this was achieved by relying on two US-systems, GPS and ESGN, and that the US "has the ability to deny access to GPS at any time, rendering that form of navigation and targeting useless if the UK were to launch without US approval"; that targeting software was based upon US designs, that weather and geodetic data, which help ensure the accuracy of the missile, was supplied by the US Navy, and that "all the hardware and software used by the [fire control] system is US-produced", with the hardware manufactured by General Dynamics Defense Systems.[59]

72. The onshore and warhead infrastructure: Dan Plesch told us that Devonport dockyard, which serviced and repaired the UK's Vanguard-class submarines, was managed by DML, a consortium which was part owned by the US firm Halliburton, and that the Atomic Weapons Establishment at Aldermaston was managed by a consortium part owned by the US firm Lockheed Martin.[60] He also claimed that the A-90 plant used at the Atomic Weapons Establishment (AWE), Aldermaston, to manufacture warheads was a direct copy of the T-55 plutonium processing plant at Los Alamos and that the UK used the US nuclear testing si

 
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flamingknives       9/30/2006 4:19:56 PM
Did the MoD respond? Might the details be a touch sensative?

Regarding Lockheed Martin UK. Although owned by the US corporation, it is a UK based and staffed company, and as such should be considered a UK capability.
 
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EssexBoy    MOD response   9/30/2006 5:12:51 PM
FK - here you go.
 
 
Extract

We call upon the MOD to clarify the technical dependencies of the UK's Trident system upon the United States and to respond to the argument that the UK's nuclear deterrent is not truly independent. In weighing the importance of maintaining independence, attention needs to be paid to the differing concepts of independence adopted by the UK and France. (Paragraph 84)

12. The Department notes these remarks and we would disagree with much of the evidence given to the Committee on this question. In terms of the current system, as we have made clear on many occasions, the UK Trident system is fully operationally independent of the US or any other state. Decision-making and use of the system remains entirely sovereign to the UK. Only the Prime Minister can authorise the use of the UK's nuclear deterrent, even if the missiles are to be fired as part of a NATO response. The instruction to fire would be transmitted to the submarine using entirely UK codes and UK equipment. All the command and control procedures are totally independent. The Vanguard-class submarines can readily operate without the Global Positioning by Satellite (GPS) system and the Trident D5 missile does not use GPS at all: it has an inertial guidance system. We would require no lesser degree of operational independence for any successor system should the Government decide to replace Trident.
 
I'm sure you will have noted that the mod response deals only with operational independence and makes no detailed response to the other points raised in the report (other than to say "we disagree with much of the evidence given to the commitee")
 
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neofire1000    flamingknives   9/30/2006 9:59:16 PM
Actually tactical weapons are battlefield weapons and do "by definition" exist. They are very low yield weapons aimed at military targets, it only becomes "strategic" when the weapons are used against industry and civilian infrastructure and these tend to be of a larger yield.
 
Surely the threat of using low yield weapons against a military build up is much more feasible than the threat of large weapons against cities etc.
 
This is pointless anyway and could be argued about till we all die.
 
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