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Subject: What capabilities are the UK gov. wants Britons to give up?
YelliChink    8/11/2011 2:15:40 PM
Amazon Disarms Brits By Banning Self-Defense Items
 
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JTR~~    RE:Vigilantes   8/13/2011 7:04:22 AM

 



 

 



 

   As Reactive has pointed out quite rightly this was a police operation,
armed Vigilante groups were not necessary and the call to prevent such groups from
buying weaponry of any kind from Amazon was entirely the right one. It would
send out a poor message indeed if the streets of London were being policed by
armed vigilante groups. If anything this would have merely escalated the
situation. In some cases a number of the so called "vigilantes"
looked to be searching for the same kinds of opportunistic violence as the
rioters.

   Some yes may have wished to defend their homes, and yes should people
attack their property indeed they should be able to defend it. However the circumstances of
this situation did not really permit such action as homes/properties etc were
being attacked en mass by large groups of thugs, not one or two criminally
minded people as would be the case most of the time. To attempt to defend ones
home/property in this case would most certainly have resulted in a higher
casualty/death toll.

   It is the job of the police to police Britain, not armed vigilantes that
have no structure nor rules or regulations. To allow such activity would have merely
escalated the situation further essentially boiling over into a localised civil war of sorts. The police
must be allowed to do their jobs, and it is not the responsibility of the public whatever the reason to take it upon themselves to combat the rioters en mass. yes by all means take sensible action where the situation permits so (i believe the historian Dan Snow took it upon himself to personally arrest one of the thugs), phone the police if one sees violence, take your family out of harm’s way, but do not take the imposition of the law into your own hands.

   The answer was most definitely not to take an "Gung Ho", US constitution every
citizen has the right to bear arms etc style approach to the situation.

   But recent events have given further advertisement to several key problems within British
society. Many including myself have been saying it for a while now, it has been
seen by many, even the PM has been aware of such issues for a long time (but as
with the nature of politics, one is not always permitted to express all of your
views). in my opinion/view (one that is echoed my many and as addressed by the
PM in his address to the media) the fundamental problems put in the spotlight
(that have been present for many years now) is poor parenting and all the
associated issues the likes of which Reactive has largely pointed out IE lack
of responsibility, lack of respect etc, multiculturalism, look at the areas in
which these outbursts of violence erupted. all minority community areas, yes
not all the perpetrators were members of the minority communities, but i would
defy anyone to attempt to suggest that the large numbers of people from the
black community areas were not largely to blame for this. this wasn’t a protest
in regards to the man's (Mark Duggan) death. This was a social issue in my eyes
largely confined to members of the black communities who have been brought up
with this chip on their shoulder that they are constantly the victims of
oppression from a racist state and that this was somehow their fight back. they
were doing this as they have seen it as a jump on the band wagon bit of fun and
take up the old torch excuse of "oh we are fighting against racial
oppression", that is a load of bull.

Furthermore there has been less in the way of outright
condemnation from the black community over these actions (at least from what I have
witnessed) as such I believe that this is due to the fact that deep down
(but  to a lesser extent) that they be inclined to believe the same views/carry
the same chip on their shoulder. Several news reports have been aired showing a
number of people from the minority communities and the social worker
 
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JTR~~       8/13/2011 7:06:49 AM
the structure of my previous post has gone to pot, its all over the place.
apologies if it makes for difficult reading.
 
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Reactive       8/13/2011 9:20:56 AM
No it made perfect sense.
 
I think we need to look at buying a couple of decomissioned tankers on the cheap and converting them to prison units housing a couple of thousand each, the problem we have is not necessarily that our prisons are like hotels, some are certainly a long way from that, but that they are not terrifying prospects, I can honestly say that I think we should have as many prison units available for those who need them, if that means we have a million people in prison then so be it.
 
I remember once in London directing the police search teams to a gang of teenage thugs who had smashed up someone's car and decided to try and joyride it (luckily they were too stupid to do even this), the police nabbed them and the officer who came to take a statement from me could not have been more disillusioned about the likely penalties administered by the courts, he said they'd likely be out again within a day, put these thugs in a boot camp or a prison ship for a few years for relatively light acts of unrest and the deterent effect is well understood by their peers. The most ridiculous part of existing guidelines is that someone only serves half their sentance - I think that should be an incredibly rare exception for prisoners who have excelled at making ammends or made huge efforts to better themselves, not a convention used to ease overcrowding, frankly, if there were a million prison places needed in the UK I say I'd rather accept and accomodate that than worry about what it says about us as a society.
 
WRT minorities, as I said before, our society is not yet ready to discuss issues of race and culture without hysteria and as a result an ignorant one-size-fits-all approach is used even though the causational factors are somewhat predictable and very much relate to cultural background.
 
R
 
 
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YelliChink       8/13/2011 1:59:26 PM
You guys have fantasy of the power and capability of police forces.
 
This proves otherwise:
 
 
 
Besides, police forces is responsible for public order, and protect the government. They are not responsible to your safety and your property rights (which no longer exists anyway). Vigilantism is not the solution, it is necessity.
 
 
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JTR~~    RE: British Police YelliChink   8/14/2011 7:45:30 AM


   The British police forces, whilst often highly constrained by politics, are highly
effective at their jobs. Thanks to their work in Britain we are fortunate
enough to have relatively low crime rates especially in gun related crime etc
(however this is partly to do with a number of other conventions IE strict UK
gun laws etc).

   Despite what many have been saying in regards to the police conduct during the disorder
in London I feel that they conducted themselves in an appropriate manner given
their circumstances. It was not their tactics that were at fault, it was their
numbers deployed. Had more police been available the police could have taken a
more pro active stance against things.

   by all accounts the police were outnumbered on the first couple of nights, they had
too few bodies out on the streets to cover the many trouble spots and help protect
the emergency service crews let alone start to tackle the rioting mobs.

   Yes many people disagreed with their actions, it is true that the police were only able
to somewhat contain the rioters which subsequently meant that they were free to
burn and loot in these areas with a great deal of impunity. However to throw
the thin police lines at the mobs would have been a very dangerous situation. Outright
thuggery would have degenerated even further into incredibly violent running
battles with an undermanned police force. not only would it have been dangerous
for the police it would have endangered the public as what few resources the
police had available to them at the time would have been caught up in fighting
a largely hopeless battle with the mobs thus leaving other areas further
outside the trouble zones vulnerable.

   Furthermore i do not think that you have grasped the full picture in regards to the
sensitive cultural situation that we have in Britain (as much as i am annoyed
by its existence). Unfortunately in Britain we have placed a great premium upon
tolerance, while this is a fine concept we have taken the idea far too far, to
the point where our perception of tolerance defies common sense. Social orders
such as PC (political correctness) multiculturalism have been designed to
improve social integration between the indigenous British people and those
minorities who have recently immigrated to the country and or those who have a
reasonably recent history of immigration. However if anything this has largely
created a divide. it has forced cultures apart and discouraged integration on
behalf of the minority populous (one must however avoid generalising this
situation as a vast proportion of those who do immigrate to this nation do in
fact integrate successfully and adopt many of this nations indigenous customs
etc). But anyway I am beginning to digress. the stance of recent governments (a
certain left wing body which shall not be named, all those to whom this is
relevant will most likely know to whom i am referring) has been very lax in
terms of supporting British culture etc to the extent that a premium has
largely been placed upon minority groups (well this is indeed the perception of
many in Britain, to what extent this is really true i cannot say for sure but
it certainly seems to have a great deal of substance) the situation is too vast
and complex to discuss with any sense of justice on here but to sum it up in a
very crude nutshell as it were the power is there (should they choose to abuse
it) for members of the minority groups to get away with many things and abuse
many systems within our nation.

   thus if the police were to go heavy handed against the rioters (a large proportion of
which were black/and or other minority groups Jews, Asians etc) the police would
have been condemned on issues of racial prejudice somewhat similar to the
issues seen in the US between US police forces and Afro American communities, except
in Britain I would hazard to say it is more political in that the case would
probably be taken to the EHCR (European Court of Human Rights) which will more
often than not support the persecutors case thus meaning that the police would
be reprimanded and the thugs let off scot free. So like I said our politics are
too soft, we have lost a great deal of common sense and there appears to be a
distinct lack of national pride/patriotism or much in the way of support for
our own national culture/heritage.

   Whether many of my fellow countrymen agree with me or not i do not know, however from
what i can tell this view appears to be a highly popular one, l

 
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JTR~~    RE: Reactive   8/14/2011 8:11:11 AM


No it made perfect sense.

 

I think we need to look at buying a couple of decomissioned tankers on the cheap and converting them to prison units housing a couple of thousand each, the problem we have is not necessarily that our prisons are like hotels, some are certainly a long way from that, but that they are not terrifying prospects, I can honestly say that I think we should have as many prison units available for those who need them, if that means we have a million people in prison then so be it.

 

I remember once in London directing the police search teams to a gang of teenage thugs who had smashed up someone's car and decided to try and joyride it (luckily they were too stupid to do even this), the police nabbed them and the officer who came to take a statement from me could not have been more disillusioned about the likely penalties administered by the courts, he said they'd likely be out again within a day, put these thugs in a boot camp or a prison ship for a few years for relatively light acts of unrest and the deterent effect is well understood by their peers. The most ridiculous part of existing guidelines is that someone only serves half their sentance - I think that should be an incredibly rare exception for prisoners who have excelled at making ammends or made huge efforts to better themselves, not a convention used to ease overcrowding, frankly, if there were a million prison places needed in the UK I say I'd rather accept and accomodate that than worry about what it says about us as a society.

 

WRT minorities, as I said before, our society is not yet ready to discuss issues of race and culture without hysteria and as a result an ignorant one-size-fits-all approach is used even though the causational factors are somewhat predictable and very much relate to cultural background.

 

R

 







Thank you for your response, much appreciated.

   Prison hulks? seems a very good idea keep them away from society altogether, park them
in the north sea maybe so the good people of London or any other British town
or city which happens to have to good fortune of having a river running through
it do not have to wake up in the morning to the sight of the scum of British
society moored on the Thames or wherever ruining an otherwise beautiful view. Maybe
one of the hulks might accidentally sink ;).

   i agree about prison placements, if you need a million places then you need a million
places either that or you take to gassing them all ha. yes it would probably
say something about our society that a million of our people are incarcerated
at Her Majesty’s pleasure however we have a well established and democratically
fair justice system so it is unlikely that we would be putting them away unless
it was required, but hopefully we wouldn’t need a million places because one
would hope that we would have by that point gained a government willing to tackle
our deeply rooted social issues.

   In regards to minority groups, you are again quite correct Britain is not ready to
tackle matters relating to this issue really. i am one of a few people who will
address these issues quite freely as i feel that we shouldn’t be constrained by
this perceived "taboo" of not talking about the. To ignore it, or to
refuse to address is merely cements the issue further. but as a country, we do
not seem ready to acknowledge the issue let alone address it, god forbid take
action about and this shall most likely remain that case until we find
ourselves with a strong government that can assert some common sense and is
willing to address and tackle these issue, at the moment i cannot see that
happening, but there is always 2015.

   Quite ironic really only today was there an article about this exact same issue in
the Daily Mail, here is why Britain is unready and the following reaction those
who choose to speak out will receive should they attempt to address the matter,
i have enclosed the link below should it interest you.

Regards

 
 
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YelliChink       8/18/2011 11:17:48 PM
 
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RedParadize       8/19/2011 12:38:15 AM
By NRAvideolol
 
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