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Subject: Can the British armed forces still defend Britain in the event of an attack?
JTR~~    3/29/2010 1:05:12 PM
recently with all of these devestating cut backs the British armed forces have suffered in terms of size and equipment. through all of this there may come a point where the armed forces can no longer succesfully defend the British isles, has the point arrived now? in the event of a foriegn invasion could Britain effectively defend itself or have the government savaged the amred forces budget to a point that our national security is risked, all to save money? your thoughts please JTR~~
 
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JTR~~    sorry for the spelling by the way   3/29/2010 1:10:22 PM
i was in a rush http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emsmile.gif" alt="" />
 
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JTR~~    perhaps i should have been a little clearer   3/29/2010 2:20:29 PM
i meant can they defend Britain without external intervention of a military degree, or were you refering this in terms of Britains navy being a NATO force?
 
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flamingknives       3/29/2010 3:15:57 PM
An attack by whom?
 
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YelliChink       3/29/2010 4:21:31 PM

An attack by whom?



Yobs.
 
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Panther       3/30/2010 4:46:39 AM
The British armed forces are one of the best in the world! With that said, they could defend Britain for a short while against a determined enemy, but unless the Isles were reinforced or supported in any way possible by an outside power, then i am afraid that on her own, she would succumb to any outright invasion by a much more powerful and determined foe. In such a hypothetically ridiculous scenario, just think what if the EU were entirely  scrapped, or perhaps enlarged with a rapidly expanding and speedily centralizing power with two-three powerful core states taking the lead and calling the shots? And no, i am not thinking of any particular states gentlemen.
 
In the latter scenario, it could be said to be kind of like a modern day equivalent to what the US civil war was about. And in the former, it would be like going back to the same old, same old days prior to the great world wars; Albeit... with the UK in a whole lot worse of a position as she exists now, with her empire gone and being replaced with the dominions, in who... there is no guarantee that they would support the Isles in such a catastrophe, and let us hope this always remains to be a hypothetical scenario!
 

 
 
 
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JTR~~    appreciate your comments   3/30/2010 2:43:27 PM

The first question would be who would even have the power to get an invasion force to Britain  (and were talking about a OIF scale operation as I see it ...  if at all - and i find it highly doubtful and unrealistic -  the United States, Russia and China may have enough ships, but hardy enough range and projection capability. (that goes for China and Russia) Realistically as I see it, only the US Navy would even stand a chance to reach Britain in huge numbers. How realistic is that scenario ?  Any agressor does not only have to invade, but also resupply and maintain their fighting Army on the Island.   (so if this scenario includes France and Germany to fight on Britains side ,  if taking into account that a single well positioned Swedish Gotland-submarine successfully took out a whole Nato fleet some years ago during a Norway landing exercise, I dont see any chance at the moment to successfully occupy Britain, for no nation on earth. ) 

This inspires some hope for our armed forces yet, your comments are much appreciated, im glad to hear that others still realise the potential of our armed forces, i am particularly interested in your comments about naval power projection as i used a similar scenario before on a different topic hence my question. however on this other topic i used a scenario of what if a major power attacked Britain, i stated early on the with the royal navy being the 2nd largest navy in NATO and 2nd most powerful navy on earth (if I?m correct), would be able to severely disrupt any invaders plan of attack, (even if this meant sacrificing the entire fleet, which against someone like America would inevitably be destroyed) this however met a cold reception, also most nations on earth do not field a sizable naval air wing, again only the USA has a large naval air wing, but then again this air wing would have to fight the home nations air force, which in the case of the RAF is somewhere in the region of 300+ combat aircraft, this too could pose a problem to an invader.
So yes, the points you make are interesting please keep them coming, they are all welcome

Thanks JTR~~

 
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JTR~~    What about if the invading army made land fall?   3/30/2010 2:44:51 PM
would the scernario change somewhat from here and in whos favour, considering logisitcs home territory etc?
 
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flamingknives       3/31/2010 4:33:54 AM
Which army?
What sort of army, even?

An army of cute kittens might pose some kind of insidious threat. An army of toy soldiers would be easily contained. If you could dredge up the 3rd Shock from the cold war and dump it onto the Salisbury plain with a full set of logistics, then we would be in trouble.

Without some kind of specifics, the question is very hard to answer. To illustrate this, I shall use a different question as an example: 
"Can the UK withstand a meteorite impact?"
The answer ranges from:
"Yes, and we wouldn't even notice"
to
"No, and it would crack the planet and take everyone else with us" 
As a meteorite can range from a millimetre to several kilometres across.

There is a further issue with the British armed forces. What are they for? If it is purely for defence of the British Isles, then they are far too large. We have numerous strategic transports that are not useful for local operations, amphibious landing craft and ships that are only of use if we have to re-take the Isle of Wight. Our long-ranged frigates, destroyers and aircraft carriers are unnecessary for self defence.

However, if the role of the British armed forces is to be able to mount expeditionary campaigns against opposing nation-states in high-intensity warfare, then there is reason to believe that they are under-resourced. It is when the armed forces are expected to protect British interests and trade routes overseas that the problem is a peace time problem, especially when fighting an involved COIN campaign at the same time.
 
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Panther       3/31/2010 4:36:23 PM



The first question would be who would even have the power to get an invasion force to Britain  (and were talking about a OIF scale operation as I see it ...  if at all - and i find it highly doubtful and unrealistic -  the United States, Russia and China may have enough ships, but hardy enough range and projection capability. (that goes for China and Russia) Realistically as I see it, only the US Navy would even stand a chance to reach Britain in huge numbers. How realistic is that scenario ?  Any agressor does not only have to invade, but also resupply and maintain their fighting Army on the Island.   (so if this scenario includes France and Germany to fight on Britains side ,  if taking into account that a single well positioned Swedish Gotland-submarine successfully took out a whole Nato fleet some years ago during a Norway landing exercise, I dont see any chance at the moment to successfully occupy Britain, for no nation on earth. ) 



This inspires some hope for our armed forces yet, your comments are much appreciated, im glad to hear that others still realise the potential of our armed forces, i am particularly interested in your comments about naval power projection as i used a similar scenario before on a different topic hence my question. however on this other topic i used a scenario of what if a major power attacked Britain, i stated early on the with the royal navy being the 2nd largest navy in NATO and 2nd most powerful navy on earth (if I?m correct), would be able to severely disrupt any invaders plan of attack, (even if this meant sacrificing the entire fleet, which against someone like America would inevitably be destroyed) this however met a cold reception, also most nations on earth do not field a sizable naval air wing, again only the USA has a large naval air wing, but then again this air wing would have to fight the home nations air force, which in the case of the RAF is somewhere in the region of 300+ combat aircraft, this too could pose a problem to an invader.

So yes, the points you make are interesting please keep them coming, they are all welcome


Thanks JTR~~




Guy's you are overlooking a little detail here! The US is already in the UK with over 10,000+ military personnel primarily serving in the air force and navy alongside their British counterparts at their own bases all over the isles. So, in essence this makes JTR's question rather moot! An attack on the UK is also an attack on the US! I'm not interested in chest thumping or deflating anyone's pride here, but there is no other way around it for a would be aggressor. I don't see this changing anytime in the first half of this century either.
 
 
Now, aside from the friction being caused by the influx of immigration from Muslim countries upon the European continent as a whole, i certainly do not see the European states as any realistic threat to the UK as represented by the union, or by even individual states like Germany or France. Only something truly spectacular would make me change my mind on that! That leaves only two states in my mind currently that could pose any type of threat down the road, Russia and the Chinese? While i see the Russian threat to the UK or Europe as whole, to be very minimal for the time being, it is the Chinese that are the unknown quantity, especially after the 2050 - 2075 time frame. I mean, they aren't modernizing, but the question is... is it all for nothing? Especially as far as where the UK is concerned, they are paying particular attention to the quality of it's navy! Would the UK be able too hold out against the inexhaustible manpower of the Chinese, especially if it ever came too eclipse the US navy and thereby virtually dominate the globe at it's leisure?
 
Sounds preposterous?  Sure, but remember we are talking purely hypothetical here. So i would think it would be well worth the effort in remembering that it was just as equally preposterous that the pre-1800 idea of a tiny island we now know as the UK, would ever come to control and dominate over 25% of the globe? The Mongols never achieved such a feat, but came close.
 
 
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Panther    Oops!   3/31/2010 4:45:35 PM







The first question would be who would even have the power to get an invasion force to Britain  (and were talking about a OIF scale operation as I see it ...  if at all - and i find it highly doubtful and unrealistic -  the United States, Russia and China may have enough ships, but hardy enough range and projection capability. (that goes for China and Russia) Realistically as I see it, only the US Navy would even stand a chance to reach Britain in huge numbers. How realistic is that scenario ?  Any agressor does not only have to invade, but also resupply and maintain their fighting Army on the Island.   (so if this scenario includes France and Germany to fight on Britains side ,  if taking into account that a single well positioned Swedish Gotland-submarine successfully took out a whole Nato fleet some years ago during a Norway landing exercise, I dont see any chance at the moment to successfully occupy Britain, for no nation on earth. ) 







This inspires some hope for our armed forces yet, your comments are much appreciated, im glad to hear that others still realise the potential of our armed forces, i am particularly interested in your comments about naval power projection as i used a similar scenario before on a different topic hence my question. however on this other topic i used a scenario of what if a major power attacked Britain, i stated early on the with the royal navy being the 2nd largest navy in NATO and 2nd most powerful navy on earth (if I?m correct), would be able to severely disrupt any invaders plan of attack, (even if this meant sacrificing the entire fleet, which against someone like America would inevitably be destroyed) this however met a cold reception, also most nations on earth do not field a sizable naval air wing, again only the USA has a large naval air wing, but then again this air wing would have to fight the home nations air force, which in the case of the RAF is somewhere in the region of 300+ combat aircraft, this too could pose a problem to an invader.



So yes, the points you make are interesting please keep them coming, they are all welcome




Thanks JTR~~










Guy's you are overlooking a little detail here! The US is already in the UK with over 10,000+ military personnel primarily serving in the air force and navy alongside their British counterparts at their own bases all over the isles. So, in essence this makes JTR's question rather moot! An attack on the UK is also an attack on the US! I'm not interested in chest thumping or deflating anyone's pride here, but there is no other way around it for a would be aggressor. I don't see this changing anytime in the first half of this century either.


 

 

Now, aside from the friction being caused by the influx of immigration from Muslim countries upon the European continent as a whole, i certainly do not see the European states as any realistic threat to the UK as represented by the union, or by even individual states like Germany or France. Only something truly spectacular would make me change my mind on that! That leaves only two states in my mind currently that could pose any type of threat down the road, Russia and the Chinese? While i see the Russian threat to the UK or Europe as whole, to be very minimal for the time being, it is the Chinese that are the unknown quantity, especially after the 2050 - 2075 time frame. I mean, they aren't modernizing, but the question is... is it all for nothing? Especially as far as where the UK is concerned, they are paying particular attention to the quality of it's navy! Would the UK be able too hold out against the inexhaustible manpower of the Chinese, especially if it ever came too eclipse the US navy and thereby virtually dominate the globe at it's leisure?


 

Sounds preposterous?  Sure,
 
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