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Subject: UK - Training PLA Officers At Sandhurst
Softwar    9/8/2008 11:03:38 AM
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4681845.ece The government has breached EU rules banning military cooperation with China by allowing a Chinese army officer to study at Sandhurst. Officer Cadet Liu Liu, who graduated from the Royal Military Academy last month, has spent the past year training alongside British army cadets. A second Chinese People's Liberation Army officer is expected to join the new intake at Sandhurst this week.
 
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ArtyEngineer       9/8/2008 5:09:36 PM
Wow!!!!  I have to say I am shocked!!!  WTF were the MoD thinking? 
 
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Softwar    With Friends Like These....   9/10/2008 11:04:25 AM

Wow!!!!  I have to say I am shocked!!!  WTF were the MoD thinking? 


Next time someone complains about the ITAR restrictions on exports to the UK - I will make sure to point this little gem out.  If you need to ask why the US restricts military technology for export (e.g. JSF, F-22 etc...) then this is a good example.
 
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flamingknives       9/10/2008 3:20:19 PM
At which point it's only fair to point out this:

But I suppose the expecting consistency is a little too much.
 
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Softwar    Hard Cold Facts....   9/10/2008 4:00:47 PM

At which point it's only fair to point out this:



But I suppose the expecting consistency is a little too much.

 
If you want to throw some dirt here - let's be honest about it - the US and Israel have their own PRC history to live down.  However, that kind of argument here is a deflection - not a counter - for what is happening NOW in the UK.

The US jumped into Israel big time for the Phalcon deal in the 1990s and other neato items that somehow floated out of their inventory and into the PRC.  I personally passed on info that helped kill the Phalcon deal - the fact that it was mounted on a used 707 gave the US a veto - as per export regs you cannot re-export a used airliner for military purposes without prior permission.
 
The dems and the Clinton administration were in love with the PRC and opposed pressuring Israel to stop selling.  In fact, they were trying to find ways to offer our weapons to China.  I have a wonderful list of weapon systems that were proposed by the Clintonoids - including missiles, laser designators, and mobile radars.  Once this hit the public - the whole plan fell apart and Congress removed all sorts of powers from the Commerce Department to negotiate - moving oversight back to State and Defense.

LINK
 
The Bush admin. drew a harder line with Israel.  Bush threatened to cut them off completely if Tel Aviv did not comply and shut down all sales to the PRC.  DOD cancelled several joint projects and denied access to a bunch of others.  In the end - it was the Harpy deal that broke the bounds - and in 2005 Tel Aviv had one of two choices - Washington or Beijing.  They cut the PRC loose and have complied - with no more sales going to China.
 
The fact is the Israelies now recognize some of their own equipment in the hands of Iran - stuff they sold to China is now pointed at them (Harpy look alike clones).  It became painfully obvious that there were some in Tel Aviv who did not give a damn about their own national security - much less the relationship with Washington.  They are gone.
 
Israel does not train PRC officers in their military schools.  The UK deal - training PLA offciers - not only violates pacts with the US but also the ban in the EU. 
 
Finally, and this is a key point, note that the F-22 is NOT being offered to anyone.
 
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neutralizer       9/11/2008 3:47:34 AM
Talk about total uninformed crap in posts!  Some of the rubbish is off with the loony toons.
 
What do you guys think they teach at RMAS? 
 
The teach basic individual skills - drill, shooting, fieldcraft, how to use a radio, and similar.  They teach tactics up to coy level and what the different arms do, a bit of miltary law and other legal aspects of war (eg proprtionate use of force - I think the US should send a few to learn about this) particularly in complex environments and taking into account wider factors, basic staff duties, etc.  Most importantly they also develop their leadership potential (basically the British Army selects for RMAS on the basis of leadership potential).  If they did the 12 month course (instead of 6 month) then there are some 'academic' components, miltitary and international affairs type stuff.  There will be nothing taught above UK Restricted level, they most certainly not be probing into the depths of military technology, never mind NATO's innermost secrets.
 
This is an excellent initiave, even if there's only a couple of guys per year.  They will learn about the armed forces in a democratic, pluralist and open society.  This can only be good, particularly if they are smart and not there because they are someone's relative (which is often a problem with those from 3rd world countries), it'll be interesting to see if they get the prize for the best overseas student. 
 
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neutralizer       9/11/2008 4:32:58 AM
I suggest a visit to the RMAS web site.  This page http://www.sandhurst.mod.uk/courses/commissioning.htm outlines what the course is about.  The News page is worth a look (Westpoint thrashed again) and PLA guy didn't win the prize, it went to an Omani.
 
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Softwar    Seems as if I'm not the one...   9/11/2008 9:54:56 AM

?This is a critically important issue,? said Liam Fox, Shadow Defence Secretary. ?We require urgent disclosure about whether the prime minister or the defence secretary knew about this and whether it represents a change in policy or plain incompetence with our national security.?

 
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neutralizer       9/12/2008 6:20:31 AM
UK defence policy includes a handful of main themes, one of which is Defence Diplomacy.  I'm actually surprised that no one noticed another item on RMAS site, there's Sudanese cadets there again after a gap of 15 years or something.
 
The point about China is that they are 'coming out', they are now involved in peace keeping operations and it makes a lot of sense for them to have some officers who understand the way that western armies operate. 
 
 
 
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Softwar       9/12/2008 9:52:58 AM
Ok - you miss the point again.  Sure it seems on the surface to be okay but what is really going on here?  If its some sort of co-operation via the UN - then ok but it seems not to be UN oriented or sponsored.  We do need some answers - basically because the PRC is know to pull tricks and bribe their way through the doors.
 
Put it in this context - we have to share airspace and civilian air traffic with the PRC.  So why not help the Chinese with some training for their ATC - you know bring them up to speed?  Sounds very nice and civilian, right?  Same basic concept - seems simple and peaceful....  Only it wasn't.
 
 
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neutralizer       9/13/2008 12:14:56 AM
We don't know whether UK or PRC made the first move and whether it was in London or Beijing.  But it doesn't matter.  Western forces will be meeting PLA on UN peacekeeping operations, if they haven't already.  PLA generals have visited UK defence establishments for a couple of decades.  It's all part of UK's national policy of Defence Diplomacy.  Of course the PLA will be looking out for any interesting snippets, their military attaches already do this, as do everybody else's.   The matter has nothing to do with the EU or the US.  If UK considers that it's in their national interest that is their right.  As I previously pointed out, they aren't going to learn any military secrets at RMAS - apart from the inner workings of SA80. However, PRC aspires to be a cricketing nation, very civilised and obviously the right road to world domination, so perhaps this is their agenda here (not that RMAS is noted for its team).
 
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