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Subject: Insulting Islam is Illegal
Phaid    4/16/2008 9:16:56 AM
PARIS (Reuters) - French former film star Brigitte Bardot went on trial on Tuesday for insulting Muslims, the fifth time she has faced the charge of "inciting racial hatred" over her controversial remarks about Islam and its followers. Prosecutors asked that the Paris court hand the 73-year-old former sex symbol a two-month suspended prison sentence and fine her 15,000 euros ($23,760) for saying the Muslim community was "destroying our country and imposing its acts". Link follows
 
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Phaid       4/16/2008 9:17:33 AM
" est ici.
 
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Phaid       4/16/2008 9:18:30 AM
Let's try that again.

Story here.

 
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nominoe    what's the problem?   4/16/2008 9:30:00 AM
 
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nominoe    what's the problem?   4/16/2008 9:38:57 AM
In france Racism is illegal. These laws applies to antisemitism, and to every form of racism. You can't insult the gays either. So what's the problem?


 
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Phaid       4/16/2008 11:20:50 AM
In france Racism is illegal.

That is a really funny concept.  How can you make a thought or belief illegal?  All you can do is make the expression of it illegal, and that won't change anything.

Anyway, to answer your question, "the problem" is that you can be fined and sent to jail for speech.  When you see the things that Muslims in France have done, the statement that "Muslims are
destroying our country and imposing its acts" is not necessarily false or hateful, simply an expression of anger at the actions of members of that community.  Even if you don't agree with it, the proper response would be to express an opposing viewpoint, not to simply jail the person.
 
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YelliChink       4/16/2008 11:26:35 AM

In france Racism is illegal. These laws applies to antisemitism, and to every form of racism. You can't insult the gays either. So what's the problem?



The problem is that, racist or not, it is the other side who are actively engaging in racist/religious violence. There might be some Franks who gang up and initiate brawls against minorities, but I don't see white people in France burning cars and creating specific racial/ethnic/religion zones/ghettos  that no others dare to step in. It only feels good to ban racism, but you can't ban them after all. It is racial violence that should be punished. Racism speech, though despicable as it is, may or may not be tolerable, and Ms. Bardot has far from reaching the intolerance line.
 
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nominoe       4/16/2008 11:56:12 AM
Point taken.

Now what would you think about a man saying that "the jewish community is destroying our country and imposing its acts"? Do you think that the appropriate response would be expressing an opposing viewpoint? If so, then i respect your opinion. But numerous french were murdered  during WWII because they were jews. Sometimes, other french helped the murderers. French who thought that the jews were destroying the country.

The second point is that she did not say that as it sounds here. My english is not good enough to translate what she said in good way, but the full sentence was far less polite. In french : "Il y en a marre d'être menés par le bout du nez par toute cette population qui nous détruits, détruit notre pays en imposant ses actes" 

Third, it makes 5 times she goes on trial for similar declarations. So, prison and fine are getting heavy. The first time, you don't have much more than a recall.
 
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Phaid       4/16/2008 12:18:30 PM
"Il y en a marre d'être menés par le bout du nez par toute cette population qui nous détruits, détruit notre pays en imposant ses actes" 

So that more or less translates to

"I'm sick and tired of being led around by the nose by this whole population that destroys us, destroys our country by committing these acts".

Reading a bit more about it, apparently among other things she is unhappy that Muslims get exceptions to animal cruelty laws, in order to allow them to slaughter sheep for Halal preparation -- thus her notion of "being led around by the nose".  Bardot is a well known animal-rights activist.  This is probably not a very civil way of putting it, but again I don't understand how a modern, civilized country can consider saying something like this an offense worth jailing or fining someone for.

Regarding the question of someone saying, "the jewish community is destroying our country and imposing its acts"?  I would consider the person saying that to be an anti-semitic idiot, but the appropriate action would be to express an opposing viewpoint, or simply to ignore them.  Simply expressing a reprehensible thought is not grounds for punishing someone, and giving the state that kind of power is a terrible idea.  

I did not realize that France had laws like that in place -- I know Britain was considering it and there was wide opposition -- and I am very disappointed to find out this is the case.
 
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nominoe       4/16/2008 12:32:01 PM
Yellichink, The riots in 2005 were not religious or racist at all. They were initiated by the death of two youngsters which were chased by the police. Riotters were white, blacks, arabs, even asians. It was basically young people in bad social condition, with no future, riotting and burning cars because they hated the society.

Of course, among defavorised youngsters there are more arabs, muslims and black people than among physics students, and that IS a problem. The same goes in the USA. But it had nothing to do with religion. When the headscarf ban was voted, there were no riots (and that was a very important muslim religious issue).

In france the problem is not that arabs are muslims. It's that arabs are poor. So they do the dirty work the french don't want. During the 50ies, it was the portugeses. 99,9% of the french muslims are peaceful, and the police take care about others. There is no war here, no suicide bombing. Racism and antisemitism are decreasing (923 acts in 2006, 707 in 2007, hardly a civil war). Don't believe too much all of this "francistan" or "eurabia" BS.

And if you doubt about the loyalty of French muslims, take a look at Rama Yade. She's secretary of foreign affairs, and she was the only minister in the government who did not want to receive muhammar khadafi last year (stirring a crisis in the government because of abrupt talk on the lybian president).
 
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YelliChink       4/16/2008 5:05:53 PM

Yellichink, The riots in 2005 were not religious or racist at all. They were initiated by the death of two youngsters which were chased by the police. Riotters were white, blacks, arabs, even asians. It was basically young people in bad social condition, with no future, riotting and burning cars because they hated the society.


There are 372 cars burnt through out France on Jan 1, 2008. Don't tell me that this is because death of two young gangs from minority-dominated ghetto due to police violence in 2005. And, yes, the majority of the car-burning youths are muslims. The unassimilable muslim community will be your problem, and that's the root of all the car-burning. Eurabia is no joke since white French people have such low birth rate compare to their muslim counterpart. In times muslim population will be dominant, and they will think themselves as muslims who live in a piece of land used to be called France. French nation comes with identity of being a French. You won't find much French identity in those ghettos, maybe only when during football games. Otherwise, being a French and to be proud of it in those ghettos means to be a traitor of their race/religion. Today it's the youths, and tomorrow it will be the communities. It's just a matter of time that they will introduce Sharia. There wasn't Reformation of Islam, and the chances there will be one is so slim, that even an atomic monolayer of graphite is thicker than that.

Things are different in the US, since the US is a nation of nations, glued by hatred of land and people they left behind in order to seek freedom and happiness in the land of opportunity. The only exception is African Americans, which most of their ancestors were forcefully brought as slaves, but they are not multiplying like Arabs. Actually, the majority of low-paying jobs are done by Mexicans now, and they are the ones who are multiplying really fast.
 
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