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Subject: Insulting Islam is Illegal
Phaid    4/16/2008 9:16:56 AM
PARIS (Reuters) - French former film star Brigitte Bardot went on trial on Tuesday for insulting Muslims, the fifth time she has faced the charge of "inciting racial hatred" over her controversial remarks about Islam and its followers. Prosecutors asked that the Paris court hand the 73-year-old former sex symbol a two-month suspended prison sentence and fine her 15,000 euros ($23,760) for saying the Muslim community was "destroying our country and imposing its acts". Link follows
 
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Shirrush    Nominoe   4/16/2008 6:30:14 PM
Nominoe, you must remember that while the ostrich's head is in the sand, it's butt is invitingly sticking out.
All you said about the suburban ghettos' youths being poor, unemployed and disaffected may be true, but you're dancing to the enemy's tune with your haughty dismissal of the Eurabia thing.
The reason why you chose to ignore the "good work" of the Saudi Salafist preachers in the French mosques, and their role in inciting the riots as well as the atmosphere of Islamic terror prevalent in these suburbs' schools, is unfortunately no mystery for me. The French appear to have accepted their roles of victims, and are soon to welcome their new masters with wide-open rectums, just like the last time 68 years ago.

What Americans do not seem to understand, is that racism, along with many other kinds of bad behavior, is so prevalent in the French society that the Republic has had to legislate against it. Mrs. Bardot was not merely expressing her concern about disturbing (and illegal!) slaughtering practices, or even criticizing Islam as a tool of conquest, she was spewing hatred in a most unseemly manner, and directing it at a large segment of her compatriots, many of whom having earned their citizenship by fighting -and bleeding- for France, while a large number had had to flee North Africa in order not to be murdered by the above-mentioned Salafists. She richly deserved her sentence.

The French society, with its rigidly compartmentalized professional caste system, and its elitistic, exclusive education system, is certainly not well suited to integrate large immigrant populations, but most of these make it through, especially these who want to integrate. The Portuguese of the 60's (not the 50's, these were Sicilians and other Italians) had it easier though, since they were Catholics speaking a Latin language, and as far as we French Jews were concerned, the easily recognizable kinship (i.e., why is Mrs. Azevedo lighting two candles on Friday nights?) certainly helped.
North African Jews, who came to France in the early '60s as refugees, mostly from Algeria and Tunisia, never set any car on fire, and most families were out of the suburban ghettos within 10 years. Very few of the multitudinous, mostly ethnic Chinese refugees from the Indochina war ever made any headlines,  and nobody is afraid of them even though they take pride of their identity and rarely marry outside their community.
The Arabs are a different story. Many of them fled to France because they had fought for France against their kinsmen, or had to leave Algeria precipitously in order to avoid being murdered by the Islamists, but a lot of them infiltrated as the bridgehead of the Jihadi conquest, also making many converts among the disaffected, marginalized young males of the other group. Slurring all of them as Mrs. Bardot did is certainly racism, but refusing to recognize the threat like Nominoe does is equivalent to a national death wish.

 
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swhitebull       4/17/2008 6:41:30 AM

In france Racism is illegal. These laws applies to antisemitism, and to every form of racism. You can't insult the gays either. So what's the problem?




Islam is NOT a race - it is a religion. Why is that not clear? 
What you have with your Muslim immigrants from North Africa is the 3rd invasion of the Moors into Spain, and their subsequent pillaging and plundering of your country's traditions and ethos. They are the equivalent of a plague of locusts, consuming and destroying everything in their path, leaving nothing behind, and creating nothing new, unlike the ant, which builds, stores and enhances the community.
 
 
swhitebull
 
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nominoe       4/17/2008 1:00:06 PM
Swithwull, BB didn't insult islam but "the population".

Phaid, what you say about the laws is right, however the "incitating racial hatred" is usually applied only for serious cases (or public people). This law is a consequence of the law baning everything related to nazism (opinion, symbols, and so on) which has been extended to protect all others communities.

I hear what you all say, but i'm less pessimistic than you about french muslims. The situation is not as worse as in ME here, and as i said religious violence is marginal in france (burned cars are not related to islam!).

 
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swhitebull       4/17/2008 2:45:56 PM

Swithwull, BB didn't insult islam but "the population".
The Reuters article specifically cites the charges as "insulting Muslims" for "inciting racial hatred".  Sure sounds like Reuters is conflating religion with race. How does that translate into insulting "le population"? Reuters is VERY clear and careful as to what it is saying - they have manuals, you know, about how not to call a terrorist a terrorist, or a North African car-burning Muslim immigrant a "misguided youth."  They wouldnt want to give the wrong impression, would they?


Phaid, what you say about the laws is right, however the "inciting racial hatred" is usually applied only for serious cases (or public people). This law is a consequence of the law baning everything related to nazism (opinion, symbols, and so on) which has been extended to protect all others communities.

I hear what you all say, but i'm less pessimistic than you about french muslims. The situation is not as worse as in ME here, and as i said religious violence is marginal in france (burned cars are not related to islam!).
It's just coincident that most of the "misguided youths" doing the burning happen to be Muslims. BUt there is no connection, is there?

swhitebull

 
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Softwar       4/17/2008 4:43:08 PM
I am afraid that appreciation and understanding of the First Amendment (Freedom of Speech) here in the US is somewhat different than similar applications around the world.
 
The First Amendment does give us Americans quite a bit of room to hurl insults or make nasty statements.  You can say - for example - "I dislike all those dirty (insert goup name here)" in public or on TV.  However, you cannot say the same thing in front of a crowd that will react violently to said statement - inciting a riot is not free speech.
 
You cannot threaten the life of the President - this is NOT free speech - it can earn you jail time.
 
You cannot shout "FIRE" in a crowded theatre - this is akin to the incitment clause - because you might cause bodily harm to people for making a false exclamation.
 
You cannot even joke about hijacking or terrorism inside an airport - again a direct relationship to the incitment clause.
 
You can use so-called HATE speech - but it may be used against you if someone where to act upon it.  Usually, the penalties here are in the civil court rather than the criminal side.
 
So if Bardot's words are to be judged as inciting others to act in an illegal manner - yes it could be prosecuted.  However, the translation appears to be an opinion not a declaration - so it is not inciting others to act - just venting.  While I respect the Tri-color and its stand on Freedom - sometimes you guys go past the issue and way overboard.  You cannot enforce thought or force people to like each other - that comes with time and understanding - not laws on the books that can be twisted by whomever is ruling at the moment to oppress others who want to express themselves freely.
 
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Shirrush    A clearer view of the game board.   4/22/2008 3:04:43 AM
Who's against whom in this Bardot story, by a pro-freedom blogger. Read it all, it's worth it.
 
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Phaid    A clearer view of the game board   4/22/2008 2:15:15 PM
Well, that was an interesting article, but it really doesn't change anything.  Silencing dissent is silencing dissent, regardless of the dissenter's broader beliefs.  And it's cowardly in its selectivity, as the blogger even points out, since while BB gets slapped with a lawsuit, imams are evidently free to hurl fatwas from the minarets.
 
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nominoe       4/23/2008 5:13:36 AM
That's an ugly article revealing another author spreading hatred of anything that made France. Insulting Badinter (f* the victims) says it all. Badinter was the man who fought to abolish the death penalty in France, and succeeded. It is considered as a great achievment by a majority of the french. You may not like it but that's a fact.

Then the author victimizes the jews by saying that the justice adressed islam insults and not jews insults. Surely the author does not remember the trials of Jean marie le Pen or Dieudonnée who were fined for similar sayings adressings the jews. And what you say about imams "free to hurl fatwas from the minarets" is just not true. May i remind you the story of the Venissieux imam who was expulsed from france because of his sayings. In France, Jews, and muslims are Equals. In fact the only people you can mock and insult like you want would be the catholics (like me).

Then the authors goes with the burning cars. This urban legend must be stopped : there are more cars burning in UK than in France (75000 a year UK, 50 000 france) By the way how does the US compare in this matter? i'd like to see real data. The fisrt cause of burning cars is insurance fraud (1/3), then  hiding proofs and ADN evidences for stolen cars. And last, urban violence. By the way, i'm still waiting any proof that urban violences are linked to islam. This assertion is just an attempt to turn your desires into reality. Do you really think that scum care about islam? they care about their a**.

What really pisses me off is seeing arabs OR jews who try to import ME situation in a country where BOTH are just FRENCH CITIZEN.  And the fact  that some  americans, israelis, or arabs  would like to see france burning in a civil war is just the reflect of people who cannot support the fact that france lives in peace and try to face it's problems in a democratic way rather than using guns.

What should france do according to you, "waking up" and follow israel example? thanks a lot but keep your "solutions", as we can all see what are the results. Since i can sleep in my bed without fearing a kassam rocket or a suicide bombing, and since my fellow citizens do not have to bomb civilians or fight terrorists, i do not feel that we have lessons to receive.

Sorry for the tone but i'm really angry about this kind of articles.
 
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sofa       4/24/2008 8:36:35 PM
"... France lives in peace..."
"Since i can sleep in my bed without fearing a kassam rocket or a suicide bombing, and since my fellow citizens do not have to bomb civilians or fight terrorists, i do not feel that we have lessons to receive." - nominoe
-----
Peace be unto you. Have you a prayer rug yet? Is your wife wrapped up in a sheet? That lesson is soon upon you....
 
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cerbere       5/7/2008 2:07:35 PM
Nominoe,
I have no idea where you get your infos from, but the riot was made by and for the muslims barely any catholic in theses area saying that "white" were in is just plain false and if theses 2 dude did not run in front of the police and go to this EDF building they will be alive but of course like all leftist will say it is the police fault as usual, wondering if sometimes we should take the "Grande Dame" out of the basement and cut a few head for the use they do of it anyway ... 2nd rama yade is an proofed idiot, she is being used as a "show" nothing more beside she is secretary of states with no budget or real powers only a big mouth and thats probably the only reason why she is still around.
 
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