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Subject: The Death of French Culture
YelliChink    11/28/2007 4:38:40 PM
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1686532-1,00.html A Times article about France's lost as world dominator in culture.
 
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YelliChink       12/1/2007 1:56:56 AM
Just to stir things up a bit.
 
I have heard of many German bands, Rammstein, Unheilig, Oomph, E Nomine etc.
 
Not to mention English bands, Beetles, Pink Floyd, Radiohead.
 
American music is usually too commercial, but sometimes there are good ones like Linking Park, and it can be heard world wide in very short time due to American dominance in global pop culture.
 
However, I've heard only Mylene Farmer, and she is not even French. France definately has something more than chanson.
 
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Rodrigo       9/15/2008 12:38:33 PM
That depends of your point of view. For example French cinema produces 1/100 of Hollywood , but French movies contribute more to the world's cultural heritage than dozens of American movies. Same with literature and all the arts. We have to discern between quality and quantity.
 
I'm sure that there are French equivalents to "the Hills", "Road rules" and all that crap, but it seems that its presence (and importance) is not that pervasive. Crap like that not only does not contribute to culture but it has a negative effect that substracts from what good cultural products add. 

 
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Rodrigo       9/15/2008 2:46:59 PM
I forgot to comment on the poor article by Time (since when a mediocre publication is the main refernece for culture??).

The article equates gross revenues as a measure of artistic importance. That way Damien Hirst, one of the basest ?artists? in the world, is considered the best (dirt poor, unrecognized Van Gogh anyone???). Does anyone have ever seen his ?art?. It's utterly garbage , designed to shock but not too create any thoughts.

 

With that box office logic Titanic, ET and the Terminators are works of art. The premise of the article is ?If it?s not known in the Midwest, it?s not good?. A very weak thesis indeed (but hey, it?s Time).

  
 
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Ispose    Re: Rodrigo   9/15/2008 3:34:55 PM
Rodrigo - sounds to me you a "Euro-Snob"
I'm willing to bet that France / Spain / Insert Euro Country produces just as much crap TV / Music / Whatever
When was the last film produced in France that Rivals say - Saving Private Ryan (Ooops, points out French need for Liberation) or Schindlers List (Again oops, points out Appalling French collaboration with the Holocaust)
I would say that American Literature can stand against any others literature, The Arts...maybe not as well as we seem to adolate Modern Art which is just plain crap...so I'll give you that one.
Music - thats mainly a cultural thing...every country has alot of gifted musicians...but look at what the US has contributed greatly to...Jazz, Blues, Rock and Roll, etc...It seems to me we pioneered the Electric Guitar
I have a sneaking hunch that the majority of Frenchman love a Big Mac, Love Euro Disney and hate Parisians but are afraid to admit it.
Just tired of euro Trash talking down to America when in fact you're no better and probably worse.
 
 
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Rodrigo       9/15/2008 6:02:29 PM

Rodrigo - sounds to me you a "Euro-Snob"

I'm willing to bet that France / Spain / Insert Euro Country produces just as much crap TV / Music / Whatever

When was the last film produced in France that Rivals say - Saving Private Ryan (Ooops, points out French need for Liberation) or Schindlers List (Again oops, points out Appalling French collaboration with the Holocaust)

I would say that American Literature can stand against any others literature, The Arts...maybe not as well as we seem to adolate Modern Art which is just plain crap...so I'll give you that one.

Music - thats mainly a cultural thing...every country has alot of gifted musicians...but look at what the US has contributed greatly to...Jazz, Blues, Rock and Roll, etc...It seems to me we pioneered the Electric Guitar

I have a sneaking hunch that the majority of Frenchman love a Big Mac, Love Euro Disney and hate Parisians but are afraid to admit it.

Just tired of euro Trash talking down to America when in fact you're no better and probably worse.

 


oops Spielberg is the only director in the world, oops again. I guess you forgot Hook and E.T. (BTW is there a single Frenchman in Schindler's??? I guess I saw a different pic, or maybe u see Frenchies everywhere)
 
I'm sorry, if the debate starts with such mediocrity there's no debate. If sentimental trickery is what you consider culture we are in deep shit. Maybe if u had started with F.F. Coppola, Scorcese, or the Coens, we could debate anything.
 
Whats ur example for literature. Grisham perhaps? bestseller = quality 
 
And about the hate of Frenchmen for Parisians, I don't see much love for New Yorkers in the red states either.  And a lot of Americans like chimichangas, every single Brit loves curry and I guess every single person in the world loves Chinese food, so what's your point??? are equating food with culture (actually fos IS culture, but in my bool Micky D doesnt qualify as food)
 
 
 
 
 
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Ispose    Re: Rodrigo   9/16/2008 10:44:04 AM
oops Spielberg is the only director in the world, oops again. I guess you forgot Hook and E.T. (BTW is there a single Frenchman in Schindler's??? I guess I saw a different pic, or maybe u see Frenchies everywhere)
 I just used Spielberg's movies as an example of great movies that were also huge commercial successes...a great movie doesn't have to be a small foreign Indie film seen by 6 people all of whom are related to the director. As far as the dig against the French about Schindlers it's more about the French collaboration in deporting the Jews. Not exactly a shining light in French History. The "Official" French history will state that they were forced to do so...but there were many French gleeful participants in this action...French Anti-Semitism runs deep.
 
I'm sorry, if the debate starts with such mediocrity there's no debate. If sentimental trickery is what you consider culture we are in deep shit. Maybe if u had started with F.F. Coppola, Scorcese, or the Coens, we could debate anything.
Coens are great..."Oh Brother where art Thou" is a great movie. The Godfather - great movie. I'm not much up on Foreign films...mainly see English ones. Richard III with Ian McKellen another great movie. South Koreas Tae Guk Gi was another good movie...but quite honestly I'm not really a foreign film guy so I can't really comment on how good a Foreign Film is...I won't judge it until I've actually seen it...only seems fair
 
Whats ur example for literature. Grisham perhaps? bestseller = quality 
 Grapes of Wrath, Main Street, Mahan's Seapower book (Off hand not sure of exact title), Mark Twain, Thomas Paine, Hemingway, Thoreau, the list goes on. A lot of very good writers and books...may not be as popular in Europe but that might be because of the "American" tone of the works. You denigrate Grisham (and I don't much care for him either) but there's a lot to be said of "Commercial" authors as well...people read them, buy their books and will buy other's books as well...Lets face it the DaVinci Code was a terrible book...thin predictable plot, shaky history, might as well have printed "insert commercial here" at the end of each chapter...but it has spawned a lot of interest in the History of the Templars and many other books have been published because of it...not necessarily a bad thing.
And about the hate of Frenchmen for Parisians, I don't see much love for New Yorkers in the red states either.  And a lot of Americans like chimichangas, every single Brit loves curry and I guess every single person in the world loves Chinese food, so what's your point??? are equating food with culture (actually fos IS culture, but in my bool Micky D doesnt qualify as food)
In my book escargot isn't food either..be that as it may. And you're right...food is culture...America is different as it is a polyglot of cultures bringing with them their cuisines....what we call Mexican really isn't...it's more Tex-Mex, A pizza in America is not the same as Italy. BBQ is an American thing. Traditional Thanksgiving dinner, etc.
America for better or worse pioneered "Fast Food"...is it great food?...No....Is it prevalent everywhere except 3rd world nations?...Yes. It has changed how the world eats and operates.
As far as New Yorkers - Parisian, etc. I think there is a noticable arrogance to Big City dwellers. I live in the American Midwest...according to mainsteam American TV, movies, etc...there seems to be only New York and Los Angeles with nothing in between. Most New Yorkers have never left the New York area and don't know a damm thing about anywhere else yet they think New York is the center of the world. I have to work with New York Contractors for projects and I've seen a better work ethic and quality of work in 3rd world nations...just appalling. I'd would bet that the relationship between Paris and the rest of France is similar.
 
My main "Gripe" is that many European look down at American as uncultured, rustic, etc...Yet many Europeans don't realize that America is not "Europe Light"...we don't think like europeans, we're much more independent, less tolerant of rules and regualtions...for example France's 35 hr work week and restrictions on overtime...that wouldn't fly here...Americans are rewarded on the quantity and quality of the work they do...you don't produce...you're out the door and they'll hire someone who will...none of this stupid Union Career mentality. We trace much of our origins from europe and quite honestly the Declaration of Independence would not exist without the Magna Carta but we're not europeans. We split off from europe 200+ years ago and our expansion to the Pacific has colored our culture and attitudes...the settlers wer
 
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Rodrigo       10/9/2008 9:29:38 AM
France's Le Clezio wins Nobel literature prize
 
A truly cosmopolitan spirit, and part-time resident of New Mexico, so much for death
 
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eldnah       10/9/2008 10:16:23 AM
The Nobel prizes for Literature and Peace have been nothing more than left wing socialistic political and politically correct statements for years. Just a few days ago the permanent head of the Nobel Prize Literary Jury, Horace Engdahl, commented that US literature is too insular and ignorant compared to European literature to be considered for a Nobel Prize. 
 
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DynamicTraveler       11/1/2008 8:52:43 AM

That depends of your point of view. For example French cinema produces 1/100 of Hollywood , but French movies contribute more to the world's cultural heritage than dozens of American movies. Same with literature and all the arts. We have to discern between quality and quantity.

 

I'm sure that there are French equivalents to "the Hills", "Road rules" and all that crap, but it seems that its presence (and importance) is not that pervasive. Crap like that not only does not contribute to culture but it has a negative effect that substracts from what good cultural products add. 





I think the whole point of the article was to say that France still has rich culture, but no one knows about it.
 
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