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Subject: In defence of France
Lynstyne    9/29/2007 3:34:09 PM
I feel obliged to create a thread in defence of france, unfortunatly nationalistic posters have in recent months created a very negative image of france. 1 poster in particular FS to my mind is now coming accross as rather racist (kick morrocons out if morrocco doesnt buy the rafale). we have our own i know and im amongst the 1st to have a go at them now as an englishman living in france i can point out many problems with france and french culture (some of which the french will point out first). however many of the people are very warm and considerate, I am unable to speak french neither is my housemate, 2 weeks ago i was on the receiving end of an unfortunate accident, i couldnt have asked for better neighbours,. despite the language barrier they offered all the assistance possible, they called the emergency service, other neighbours on learning about the accident have since offered any help we need. obviously my thanks to the emergency services, to the docters nurses and especially the surgeons and theatre staff who worked for 6 hours straight to save what they could of my fingers. A totally random thread i agree with no discussion value on sp but given my treatment i feel i would be remiss if i didnt provide a positive image of the french in light of recent rantings. please excuse my lack of punctuation and use of capitals, its only been a fortnight since the accident and im not used to being short in the finger dept on both hands, and lots of things are difficult for me.
 
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Sambation       9/29/2007 6:00:10 PM
It's a fair comment. My personal experience with the French has been good. The important thing, where your comment is concerned, is to point out that the "ranters" you mention are speaking about French politics-- about how the nation behaves, not how each French person behaves.

The distinction needs to be clear.

For example, I'm sure many (and maybe most) Iranians are very nice people, who treat others decently. Iran as a nation, on the other hand, does not deserve as much credit. When the president of that country says the Holocaust didn't happen and that Israel should be wiped off the map, the natural and sane response is "Iran is bad and should be changed." Iranians are still likely good people, though.

I believe that the French have one of the best health-care systems in the world; that their way of life is respectable; and that most French are decent, warm people. But unfortunately, the onus to prove their worthiness as a nation is on them. Attacks on the French value system and nation come from bitter memories of France's behavior in WWII/Vichy and its socialism-driven counterpoise to the US which has resulted in disastrous political events.

There is also a lingering question of anti-Semitism in France which Dreyfus, then Vichy, and today some of the highest anti-semitic acts rates in the world only reinforce.

Also, France as a nation is often hypocritical and self-righteous, supporting brutal dictatorships and giving asylum to literally the world's worst dictators after those people have ravaged their own countries and peoples for the sake of money.

Some might like (love) to respond here that the US does the same thing. This is true-- to some extent. The US supports dictatorships and pursues incorrect policy and should certainly be taken to task for it. And the US gets its fair share of blame, scrutiny, and outright hatred. The point is that if we are to make such accusations at the US, we should be making them at France, which is often considered "off limits" for political criticism.

Americans have a particular thing for France since they perceive it to be ungrateful after it sent its young men to die for French freedoms. This is a bit simplistic-- the US pursues its own interests when it goes to war. But the French did benefit from the cost of American life and treasure and it's not unreasonable to think that the French nation should express gratitude and friendliness (which it often does do) to the US.

I think Sarkozy is taking a good tack. Saying that France likes the US (while Chirac could only turn his nose up) while affirming its independence on policy, strategy and belief. France is certainly entitled to determining its own course; more than that, it is obligated to self-determination. But when policy is determined almost solely as a reaction to the US (as has been the case with France in past years) self-determination is sacrificed and France becomes merely what America is not.

 
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french stratege       9/29/2007 9:38:59 PM
Also, France as a nation is often hypocritical and self-righteous, supporting brutal dictatorships and giving asylum to literally the world's worst dictators after those people have ravaged their own countries and peoples for the sake of money.
Like Noriega, Batista, Saudis....ROLFMAO
 
And for our behaviour in WW2 it is certainly as honourable and even more than those of Anglosaxons who murdered 9 million of European civilians in order to save few hundred thousand soldiers and violated many civilized rules of war.
See my other post in the thread h*tp://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/54-720.aspx
 
Now for Jewish, you should understand that French do not tolerate any french group to act as a nation inside France and to support a foreign state .It is true for the jews as for french britanny, alsacians or Basques.
French jews have a perfect right to practice their religion in France and have a quiet life.
But as other frenchmen, they own their loyalty to France only.
There is no antisemitism here as widespread as those you can find in USA or Arabs countries for example.Most of despicable antisemitism acts are due to muslims who are not integrated in France with french values.
 
See my other post in the thread h*tp://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/54-720.aspx
 
I'm not an nationalist but a patriot for sure, and I have British or US friends I never hesitated to give them an help if they need it.
 
But I do not tolerate any unjustified insult on France which without doubt have far more contributed to a positive evolution of mankind and culture than those of pragmatic Anglosaxons motivated too often by greediness and prejudice than love of freedom or justice.Une nation d'épiciers disait Napoleon.
 
PS: for Morrocans, it is clear that we have perfectly the right to send back their nationals if their nation show ingratitude to us.It is a gift to Morrocco to allow Morroccan national to work here and send back money to their relatives in Morrocco, and if Morrocco prefer to side others at our expense, we have the right and the duty to do what is needed for France including retaliation measures.No racism here..
 
And Lynstyne, I 'm please you like French hospitality and that french people behave correctly with you but I doubt you dare to say them in the face what you and other people here says anonymously on France.
 
 
 
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Godofgamblers       9/29/2007 10:42:50 PM

Most of our prejudices fade away when we come face to face with people!

Get well soon.

God bless.

 

 

 
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Lynstyne    fs   9/30/2007 1:16:03 AM
And Lynstyne, I 'm please you like French hospitality and that french people behave correctly with you but I doubt you dare to say them in the face what you and other people here says anonymously
 
If you care to scroll through my few posts on the boards you will see i have not attacked france, i may have on occasion critizised however you will notice i am fairly critical of the uk and the us. (my tongue in cheek list on the 101 things to do in france  not withstanding).
 
rest assured i do espouse my critisisms of france to my french collegues on France.and guess what on occasion some of them agree.
 
im to un pc and mouthy to do otherwise.
 
regarding the morocco comment in the uk a comment of send them back where they came from would be regarded as racist. I do conceed the point that you suggest this measure as an economic punishment rather than a result of skin colour, but 1 is it fair to punish a few famillies for a political decision. 2 would you apply the same logic to the uk, germany or belgium.
 
 
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Lynstyne       9/30/2007 1:22:56 AM
And for our behaviour in WW2 it is certainly as honourable and even more than those of Anglosaxons who murdered 9 million of European civilians in order to save few hundred thousand soldiers and violated many civilized rules of war.
See my other post in the thread h*tp://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/54-720.aspx
 
Im crap at searching threads out but i will try, however for your sake i really think you need to clarify this remark im not sure what youre refering into, if its your opinion re strategic bombing im happy to enter a discussion (im not a fan of that) if it refers to the holocost then really lumping everyone together wont win you any friends.
 
Im percieving a dislike of anglo saxons from youreself.
 
 
 
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Shirrush       9/30/2007 4:17:22 AM
Deporting Moroccan citizens from France to punish the Kingdom for not buying French fighters? Khhhh!
That's not racism, just pure, unadulterated FS wickedness and stupidity. Fortunately, that's not going to happen, since France is not that kind of country, and, since the Moroccan economy is increasingly basing itself on exports rather than on remittances, it is likely that a lot of Moroccans residing in gray, rainy Europe will want to go home to that beautiful sunny country of theirs, and contribute to its development.

Lynstine, get well. I understand you have a long road ahead, but I also know you're likely to get the best possible treatment. After all, French surgeons are among the world's best, and they're sore losers too!

 
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JIMF       10/3/2007 2:27:27 PM
Lynstyne,
 
Good idea for a thread, and best wishes for a rapid recovery. 
 
One thing I have to continually remind myself is that people who post here are individuals and don't necessarily represent the prevailing views and attitudes of their native land. 
 
One observation is that the French seem to attract an inordinate amount of vitriol, particularly from my fellow Americans. 
One wish is that my fellow Americans would give the French a pass for a year or two and critically analyze our relationship with our Japanese "ally".       
 
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Lynstyne       10/20/2007 4:23:47 AM
Ive been cleared to return to work on wednesday - ok in the office at the moment not physically on the aircraft- but its a start.
 
hands are healing nicely - lots of physio to go though- thanks to all who wished me well
 
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