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Subject: French pacifism: the paragon of bourgeois
Sambation    8/21/2007 8:50:19 AM
“Turn-the-other-cheek pacifism,” George Orwell observed in 1941, “only flourishes among the more prosperous classes, or among workers who have in some way escaped from their own class. The real working class . . . are never really pacifist, because their life teaches them something different. To abjure violence it is necessary to have no experience of it.” It's no coincidence that Orwell made this remark in 1941, months after the French capitulated to the Germans. There's a very simply-put but complex question about France: does it, today, have any values? My answer is equally simple and complex: no, it has only a lifestyle. Or, to be more fair, the country values only its lifestyle. It raises up its triune value system, the now-cliched "liberte, egalite, fraternite." Perhaps that once meant something, perhaps not. Today it's a banner -- or ceiling, is a better word, that the French use to ascertain the upper limit of action before it damages the status quo. The 35 hour work week, some of the largest vacation time allotments in the world, and excessive welfare provisions all have no better expression than the unwillingness of the French to fight for something. A fight is a shakeup of the status quo; it spills coffee and bumps the artist's hand while he's at the easel. Of course, the French go to work, some to the army. But very few French will deny the claim that the French quality of life is the best in the world. Leaders on the French left trump this claim as proof of the success of the French model, and proclaim that they will never give up the model, and the lifestyle that it produces, no matter what the cost. But it's that last phrase that curdles. What is the cost? There's no need to rehash France's huge domestic problems, including, but not limited to, what is amounting to a population invasion by a group that has little desire to give up religious values that drown out the comparatively feeble calls for liberte, egalite, etc. The French want to say there is no problem, or the problem is only a social one -- a sociological one, one that is solved by resource and integration. Well, there are two lessons to learn from the British. The first is that no matter how wealthy, how fluent in the language, and how gainfully employed your fifth columners might be, they, at times, are still eager to blow themselves up in buses, because they see each other, and not their countrymen who sing about "fraternite," as their true brothers. Perhaps not all of them, but enough. The second lesson is Orwell's. A pleasant society, a society that values its lifestyle and how its citizens interact with one another and not WHY they interact with one another (a moral purpose in a nation), has no need for violence. It abjures it. It looks around at and sees a supremely healthy, if flawed, society. One that integrates others because, it reasons, it has what everyone wants-- it's beautiful quality of life. Perhaps the French of the spring of 1940 saw things the same way: "the Nazis aren't so bad." What was the litmus test that led France into Vichy? Very simple: Will agreeing with the Nazis change our lifestyle more or less than disagreeing with them? France chose clearly in 1940. Today the question is the same, but more acute. The majority of French society has chosen: agree, integrate, appease, and relate. Make excuses and find hidden causes for outrageous acts of violence committed (around the world) by a certain religious group. "It cannot be the fault of the group, since we know better than to fault groups, therefore it must be the fault of the country; our fault, not their fault." Sarkozy's plans to bring France into the modern global economy are much more than just social plans. They are, to borrow a term, transcendental. If he is successful, he will change the nature of France by it. But in the end it is not Sarkozy but the people of France that must choose, that must ask themselves if there aren't real principles hiding behind the preferences of their nation.
 
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Ezekiel    France delcare war...not really   9/19/2007 5:25:14 AM
Kouchner's remar's on an Iranian war have beel blown way out of proportion. The French are, get this, having a campaign of sanctions that are....not enforced through law, but through advise. The French govt advises state companies to not do business with Iran....ABSURD! Then there is this speech which amounts to no real policy, just rhetoric pure and simple. The passivity in the face of a theocracy that actively supports word wide terror. Has set up proxy militia's and is an active participant in the iraq insurgency against an allie....and the best they can do is a one liner that war is possible with iran! the passivity wouldn't be as striking if the Iranians hadn't developed the shihab three missile that can reach european shores...Europe doesn't seem to mind that much to an Islamo-facist state that could threaten to make europe a nuclear dart board!
 
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Sambation       9/19/2007 4:59:49 PM

France is a country with great values. It does not mean that France is perfect, as France (like EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY) does barely moral things for it's interests.

But France is, along the USA, at the origin of human rights and democracy with the 1789 revolution. Think of it, as they are the most importants values of the modern world.

Another important french value is secularism, as the separation between the church and the state is anchored in every french heart.  And that is the MAIN difference between the french and the americans, and of course between France and Israel.

In France there is no Evil religion, but all religions are suspected to be evil. This is at the origin of french attitude toward Israel because the average french can simply not understand how a demcroacy can be founded on a religion. This is at odds with equality and is considered to be a form of racism here. Of course, you just can't ignore religions, especially since a few years.

France is far from being doomed, even if the posters usually making this statment wish the countrary. Before asking yourself how to deal with the french military being in evil hands (!) ask yourself how to contain Iran, North korea, and Israel nuclear arsenal which is more exposed to threat than any other.
I think it's interesting that for all your high-fallutin' talk about France's "great" values you fail to mention one of them. Secularism, you say. Secularism as a 'value' is not a value, only a statement of opposition (to religion). Which is why you can only state a negative value, one of opposition, as one of the pillars of France.

You reinforce my initial point-- France is only willing to support the negative. "What will hurt our way of life least?" Not, "What is the right thing to do."

Another Frenchman making my point for me. I love the French board.

 
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Godofgamblers    sambation   9/29/2007 3:44:11 AM
I think before you seriously enter into this conversation, you should first read up on French history: start with Charlemagne, then the 100 years war, read up on the French Revolution, Napoleon and the first Empire, then read all you can on the 5 republics. This will give you a rough idea of French political and social values.
 
After you have a taste of French history, you should then read some of France's literature. Start with Georges Bernanos, Boris Vian, Arthur Rimbaud, Paul Verlaine, Moliere, Celine, Charles Baudelaire, JP Sartre, Albert Camus, Flaubert, Zola... this will give you more ideas on French aesthetic values. Don't forget, of course, to include the plastic arts in the works of Monet, Gaughin, Van Gogh, Matisse to begin with...
 
Without trying to be offensive though, I have to wonder if you have any interest in finding the answer to your question or if you are more concerned with acting like a buffoon and 'scoring points', in your mind, against your imaginary French enemies by asking rhetorical pseudo questions.
 
If you are British, which I hope you're not, your question and your attitude are even more bizarre, since France and the UK's histories are deeply entwined and rooted in Europe. Questioning French values would put your own in question too, n'est-ce pas?
 
And before you continue on your diatribe, I am not French but Asian and I would only be too happy to discuss this subject with you, once you have completed the reading list I have given you above as your homework.
 
Here endeth the lesson.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Sambation    Gobbledygooker   9/29/2007 3:08:21 PM

I think before you seriously enter into this conversation, you should first read up on French history: start with Charlemagne, then the 100 years war, read up on the French Revolution, Napoleon and the first Empire, then read all you can on the 5 republics. This will give you a rough idea of French political and social values.

 

After you have a taste of French history, you should then read some of France's literature. Start with Georges Bernanos, Boris Vian, Arthur Rimbaud, Paul Verlaine, Moliere, Celine, Charles Baudelaire, JP Sartre, Albert Camus, Flaubert, Zola... this will give you more ideas on French aesthetic values. Don't forget, of course, to include the plastic arts in the works of Monet, Gaughin, Van Gogh, Matisse to begin with...

 

Without trying to be offensive though, I have to wonder if you have any interest in finding the answer to your question or if you are more concerned with acting like a buffoon and 'scoring points', in your mind, against your imaginary French enemies by asking rhetorical pseudo questions.

 

If you are British, which I hope you're not, your question and your attitude are even more bizarre, since France and the UK's histories are deeply entwined and rooted in Europe. Questioning French values would put your own in question too, n'est-ce pas?
 

And before you continue on your diatribe, I am not French but Asian and I would only be too happy to discuss this subject with you, once you have completed the reading list I have given you above as your homework.
Wow. Thank you for the lesson. Applause. What a performance.

So, I'll answer you.

As for French history, I'm pretty well acquainted. I've "read up" on all you mention. Though I find it conspicuous that you don't care to mention the French and Indian War, World War I, World War II (and Vichy, duh), or the War of the Spanish Succession (now let's see, why might you not want to talk about the War of the Spanish Succession...hmmm...).

We can open a new thread if you care to go point for point on French military history, but it's a little off topic.

French literature. Your list is cute. I've read it all. I've also read Proust (all of it, not just Swann's Way), Balzac, Genet, Radiguet, Cocteau, Dumas, Hugo, Hilaire Belloc, Elie Faure, Gide, Maupassant, Andre Breton (and the French surrealist poets-- Louis Aragon, whose "Paris Peasant" is considered at least as important as anyone on your list, and certainly puts Celine to shame) etc, etc.

But I'm sitting here wondering why such an erudite and well rounded scholar of French literature as yourself would leave Proust off the list. And Balzac? You talk about Boris Vian instead of Balzac? I know you've read Proust, so maybe you're just having an off day.

"Plastic arts." Wow-- another impressive list. Too bad Van Gogh is not French. He's Dutch, my friend. You start your list  (of four painters, one of whom is not French, another whose name you misspelled) with painting that began in the 19th century. Was there no French painting before or after?

And film? If you wanted to take me to task wouldn't you have asked me about the New Wave? Goddard, Rivette, Mellville, Truffaut, Bresson (couldn't forget him after "Diary of a Country Priest") , Renoir? (And that Renoir is not the painter but his son, the filmmaker, just so you know.) I guess you could have just mentioned "Cahiers du Cinema," and I would have been really humiliated.

And of course let's not forget the French Enlightenment. Also those philosophes you could have embarrassed me with. Descartes (the forefather and precursor) whose contribution to optics was as great as his contribution to philosophy (both "natural philosophy" and metaphysics). Rousseau, who revolutionized the philosophy of education (you must have loved reading "Emile") as much as ethics; Montaigne, de Tocqueville (true, a later thinker but still important), Diderot, d'Alembert, etc. What would the world of ideas be without a clear distinction between amour propre and amour de soi? What do you think?

Also, I'm sure you'd want to educate me on the later thinkers--Henri Bergson, who had as much of an influence on Continental thought of the late 19th century as William James did on the American-Anglo equivalent. (You obviously know the theory that Bergson was the philosophical fountain for Proust in France as William James was for James Joyce in the world of English-speaking thought and letters. What was your opinion on that, as I'm sure you have one?) Foucault. Derrida. Baudrillard. I'm sure
 
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Herald1234    Ouch..........   9/29/2007 3:50:42 PM
and welcome to the list of experts to whom I pay close attention.
 
Herald
 
 
 
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Godofgamblers       9/29/2007 7:29:17 PM
Wow. Thank you for the lesson. Applause. What a performance.

So, I'll answer you.

As for French history, I'm pretty well acquainted. I've "read up" on all you mention. Though I find it conspicuous that you don't care to mention the French and Indian War, World War I, World War II (and Vichy, duh), or the War of the Spanish Succession (now let's see, why might you not want to talk about the War of the Spanish Succession...hmmm...).

We can open a new thread if you care to go point for point on French military history, but it's a little off topic.

French literature. Your list is cute. I've read it all. I've also read Proust (all of it, not just Swann's Way), Balzac, Genet, Radiguet, Cocteau, Dumas, Hugo, Hilaire Belloc, Elie Faure, Gide, Maupassant, Andre Breton (and the French surrealist poets-- Louis Aragon, whose "Paris Peasant" is considered at least as important as anyone on your list, and certainly puts Celine to shame) etc, etc.

But I'm sitting here wondering why such an erudite and well rounded scholar of French literature as yourself would leave Proust off the list. And Balzac? You talk about Boris Vian instead of Balzac? I know you've read Proust, so maybe you're just having an off day.

"Plastic arts." Wow-- another impressive list. Too bad Van Gogh is not French. He's Dutch, my friend. You start your list  (of four painters, one of whom is not French, another whose name you misspelled) with painting that began in the 19th century. Was there no French painting before or after?

And film? If you wanted to take me to task wouldn't you have asked me about the New Wave? Goddard, Rivette, Mellville, Truffaut, Bresson (couldn't forget him after "Diary of a Country Priest") , Renoir? (And that Renoir is not the painter but his son, the filmmaker, just so you know.) I guess you could have just mentioned "Cahiers du Cinema," and I would have been really humiliated.

And of course let's not forget the French Enlightenment. Also those philosophes you could have embarrassed me with. Descartes (the forefather and precursor) whose contribution to optics was as great as his contribution to philosophy (both "natural philosophy" and metaphysics). Rousseau, who revolutionized the philosophy of education (you must have loved reading "Emile") as much as ethics; Montaigne, de Tocqueville (true, a later thinker but still important), Diderot, d'Alembert, etc. What would the world of ideas be without a clear distinction between amour propre and amour de soi? What do you think?

Also, I'm sure you'd want to educate me on the later thinkers--Henri Bergson, who had as much of an influence on Continental thought of the late 19th century as William James did on the American-Anglo equivalent. (You obviously know the theory that Bergson was the philosophical fountain for Proust in France as William James was for James Joyce in the world of English-speaking thought and letters. What was your opinion on that, as I'm sure you have one?) Foucault. Derrida. Baudrillard. I'm sure I'd be really red in the face when you mentioned the French post-modernists and, by golly, the post-structuralists. You are so smart.

I could continue, but it's enough of these ego histrionics that you seemed so intent on pursuing in your post. You clearly know so much about French literature that it's pointless for me to go on; the way you use "n'est-ce pas"-- wow, my old university French teacher would be really proud of you. Gold star for whatever your name is!

So, to get to the (sparse and slightly rotten) meat of your response....I'm guessing (which is the best one could do with the nonsense you wrote) that you're trying to say that because France, in the past, fought good wars, produced world-class philosophers and artists (not to mention food and wine), that today it must be a great nation, chock full of values.

Well that argument is spurious. You could have written your snide, sniveling comment to me in 1931 about Germany...it's great thinkers and artists, Kurt Godel releases his paper, Albert Einstein, Goethe, etc. Would that entail that Germany (even its Weimer incarnation) was on the right track, insofar as its values were concerned?

We could talk today about the past glories, the art, the talent, the music, the developed trade routes and technologies of Persia or the Sublime Porte. Is Iran a country that today you would characterize as having a correct system of values? Is Turkey a nation whose values you would extol?

Catherine the Great's Russia was one of the most glorious and, in certain places, enlightened patch of soil on the earth. Potemkin was a philosopher
 
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french stratege       9/29/2007 9:05:04 PM
You are quite right about France's role in WW2 and the (continuing) failure for them to acknowledge the implications of the such role.
Let see the implications....
We acknowledge our failure in beginning of WW2.
As we perfectly remember that USA and UK prevented us to crush Germany for ever (on a military point of view) before WW2 and backed them when they escaped to just war reparations, entered the war at our expense (for the British)  knowing we would be in first line, do the fight and provide 90% of casualties (USA were only sitting and watching), refused us any help even selling weapons (for USA), and reproached us to not kill our self for the last man in order to save their @ss and foreing jews (while they did not do anything to prevent Auchwitz), and then repproached us to not be their vassal for ever post WW2 because we should be gratefull they would have liberated us (while in real they fought Germany going via France after Russian did the main job).
The british may have ask us to fight to the last man to save their @ass but I did not see fighting  to the last man when they fled at Dunkirk in 1940 (as well for the Dutch surrendering in 4 days after the first bombing) before backstabbing us few month later in MersEl Kebir.As we did not see USA willing to take 10 more casualties in a military operation when they had the choice to kill 5 German reservists by bombing even it implies killing a thousand french civilian women and children and destroying to the ground a french village.
If I understand well, refusing to have 10 armed soldiers killed at the expense of a thousand french civilian is a moral way to make war, while french refusing to see 100 unarmed french civilians to get shot by German rifle squad because having protected foreigners to be deported by Germans in eastern Europe is a coward attitude? (while we did not know they would have a tragic fate)
Quite strange because we think that duty of soldiers is to fight and take the risk to be killed, and not the duty of unarmed civilians including women.
What allies we had !
The lesson we had from WW2 is that you can not trust other nations and that hypocrisy of AngloSaxon on this issue is supreme. 
Quite amazing to see that Anglosaxons have contempt on us to not have won in 1940 while almost alone agaisnt the full power of German army when they had their first battlefield successes in war only once they had Russian to do 75% of the job and took 95% of casualties.
The other lesson is that we should have no shame considering how others behaved.
After all France is the only WW2 nation to not have commited war crimes and the first nation to hold out Germany's hand post WW2 to get out from the permanent cycle of continental confrontation fueled by Anglosaxon greed.
And an other one is that it is better to be friend or at least take in account the most powerfull nation at our borders in order to avoid any future European continental war which would only benefit to Anglosaxons.
And an other one is that it is good to have nukes in case and a maximum independance and freedom of maneuvers.
And a last one is that we have to be very carefull if we have to ally ourselves with USA or UK in a war considering their behavior in the past and that we should not be naive, and return them the favor of taking the main risk and for us to take the benefits including financials (instead the reverse as we have seen in the past)..
 
And I still think that we have no other choice to ask for armistice and accept it (as its terms were not dishounourating for us, allowed us to keep a lot of things and was the only thing to avoid a complete and useless destruction of France and our heritage) after losses of our main armies in the North in 1940 and to accept a fair collaboration with German until the time we would find an other opportunity to come back later as German did post WW1.
 
That Vichy did a fair job if not perfect, and that De Gaulle managed brillantly our transition to post war to reconquer our prewar position (or at least as much than British).And I cheer De Gaulle for its amazing performance.
 
I still wonder what is your opinion.
 
 
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Godofgamblers       9/29/2007 10:38:24 PM
The second world war is a very sensitive subject, FS. And it is one that I avoid when I speak with French friends because we never agree and it usually leaves both sides frustrated with little progress having been made. But Sambation has brought it up, so let's give it a go...
 
France was let down in many ways by its Anglo Saxon ally. Dunkirk, although virtually touted as some sort of a victory by some Brits, it clearly had another meaning for the French. You are quite right. However, remember that Churchill offered France a union of their two countries: the Brits DID cut and run at Dunkerke, but they did by any means surrender. I don't think anyone can argue with me that Churchill would not have given up under any condition. We know that he even had contingency plans to continue the war if the UK fell .... so France was not abandoned by the UK. (by the way you mention "fighting to the last Frenchman" which was Nazi propaganda at the time; Churchill was no coward).
 
I don't judge France as harshly as some people do because I suspect that not only France but all of Europe (even elements of the UK) was pro-Nazi. The Nazis were seen as a necessary evil... it was only upon the advent of the war that they were seen not as a necessary evil, but as simply evil. Every gov't in Europe (with the exception of Poland) had a pro-Nazi gov't. Before the war the Nazis were lauded as examples to be followed in many countries because of the way they were tough on commies and marginal societal groups (anarchists, homosexuals, etc). The main danger overshadowing Europe in those times was communism: the Nazis were seen as a necessary bulwark against that danger. Only when they rampaged thru Europe was the real danger seen.
 
So I don't judge France so harshly for collaborating as some do. They only did what everyone else did. However:
 
(1) Their collaboration had more of an impact than a smaller country such as Norway, for example, because France was such a great power.
 
(2) It seemed to take France longer than other countries to realize the folly of a pro Nazi position.
 
It is a hard pill for the French to swallow, but Degaulle represented a very small percentage of French opinion in the beginning of the war. The story taught in European schools is that Europe was taken over by force by the Nazis and thru heroic resistance and the efforts of the Allies, Europe threw off the yoke of the Nazis. The real story, however, is that most of Europe of pro Nazi before the war and planted the seeds of the rise of Nazism. The resistance movement was a marginal movement in most countries (France included) that only blossomed with the fortunes of the Allies.
 
You seem to be saying that Vichy did a good job of protecting the interests of the French during the war????
 
Few would agree with that. Petain claimed to be a 'shield between the French people and the Nazis'... but history has judged him otherwise.... he was a traitor. I cannot see in any way how collaborating with the Nazis was in the interests of the French people.
 
As for Degaulle, yes, he was a great man. To fight like that alone, isolated for so long takes great heart. But that in itself is significant. He was a minor general, recently promoted. He did not represent the mainstream French establishment at the outset of the war. The resistance and Degaulle became very important, however, once it became clear that the Allies would win the war.
 
I think you'll agree with me, FS, things should never have reached that stage. The Nazis should have been stopped pre-Sudetenland. Once they were in control of France, it is easy for us (myself included) to judge what the French should have , should not have done. The Nazis should have been stopped a long time before. You seem to be saying the same thing when you wrote that France should have been allowed to crush Germany completely in WW1, but I don't see what you envisage when you say that. Demilitarize them? Annex Germany?
 
 
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french stratege       9/29/2007 11:29:06 PM
We know that he even had contingency plans to continue the war if the UK fell .... so France was not abandoned by the UK. (by the way you mention "fighting to the last Frenchman" which was Nazi propaganda at the time; Churchill was no coward).
OK.But France would be occupied by nazis without any hope to be liberated and french population as defenseless hostages.
But the fundamental reason is that USA were neutral and Russian sharing Poland with Germans and delivering what Germany needed.
A majority of french leadership though that if France continue the war, Germany would win against UK soon or late and France punished even more than armistice conditions with annexions again of not only Alsace Lorraine but other parts of France for ever, and loss of empire.
Germany should have indeed won against UK(if they did not turn to fight Russian later) and even they would not, German land power would prevent any reconquest of French territory.And they were right in their analysis since UK needed USA full power to land in France in 1944 only, while 75% of German forces were fighting Russians for several years. Even with USA, an American British landing would have failed without Russians as allied.
In 1940 a war with USA AND Russians siding British was only a remote hypothesis (at best) and a bet.
A bet De Gaulle did but he was alone.
 
I suspect that not only France but all of Europe (even elements of the UK) was pro-Nazi.
France was not pro nazi except a minority.Vichy governement was far to be pronazi.
They were planning reconstruction of our armed forces once Germany would leave France (like they did in 1871), in order to prepare our self with a clandestine rearmement for a third round like Germany did post WW1.
Hitler would not be eternal.
Most of Vichy governement were right wing nationalists.
 
(2) It seemed to take France longer than other countries to realize the folly of a pro Nazi position
No, simply we were occupied by 45 German divisions.
 
It is a hard pill for the French to swallow, but Degaulle represented a very small percentage of French opinion in the beginning of the war.
True and everybody acknowledge it and a lot of french would still think they would surely have not sided De Gaulle considering it was a bet.For myself I doubt I would have sided De Gaulle in 1940 considering situation.
And it is not an hard pill to swallow as it is the true.
 
The story taught in European schools is that Europe was taken over by force by the Nazis and thru heroic resistance and the efforts of the Allies, Europe threw off the yoke of the Nazis. The real story, however, is that most of Europe of pro Nazi before the war and planted the seeds of the rise of Nazism. The resistance movement was a marginal movement in most countries (France included) that only blossomed with the fortunes of the Allies.
300 000 men is not so marginal (I don't count last minute resistance) and it helped.
But for sure Europe exile governements or De Gaulle were carefull to do not use resistance in massive offensive operation knowing that Nazis would be brutal in retaliation and would crush it like in Warsaw uprising. (and german have given public example of what they would do in case of resistance: see Lidice h*tp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice)
It was simply impossible for any resistance movement to free any country alone and they knowns it. Goal was to support a future British then allied reconquering by intelligence and nazis troops fixing.
A massive resistance would have mean extermination of civilian in retaliation.
 
You seem to be saying that Vichy did a good job of protecting the interests of the French during the war????
I would say an average job going worse after 1943 and a good part of french think it (including me) especially for those who have known the war like Mitterrand.
 
 he was a traitor.
People in france dislike Petain for its extrem right ultraconservative (but not nazi ) political positions (like Franco) but is not considered a traitor or a nazi for  a lot of people.He was not sentenced to death by De Gaulle and Miterrand put flowers on Petain grave until Miterrand death (for being Verdun victor mainly).
Laval was considered as some other collaborators as traitors because they went too far on the ground &n
 
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french stratege       9/29/2007 11:41:28 PM
Not only Petain is not considered as a traitor but there is a movement which think he should be rehabilitated (which I think we should bury that as it bring useless controversies).
Now even De Gaulle, Pompidou, Giscard d'Estaing and Miterrand had continued to pay tribute to Petain post WW2
ht*p://www.marechal-petain.com/gerbe_president2.htm
In English
h*tp://www.marechal-petain.com/versionanglaise/gerbe_president2.htm
 
 
 
 
 
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