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Subject: French pacifism: the paragon of bourgeois
Sambation    8/21/2007 8:50:19 AM
“Turn-the-other-cheek pacifism,” George Orwell observed in 1941, “only flourishes among the more prosperous classes, or among workers who have in some way escaped from their own class. The real working class . . . are never really pacifist, because their life teaches them something different. To abjure violence it is necessary to have no experience of it.” It's no coincidence that Orwell made this remark in 1941, months after the French capitulated to the Germans. There's a very simply-put but complex question about France: does it, today, have any values? My answer is equally simple and complex: no, it has only a lifestyle. Or, to be more fair, the country values only its lifestyle. It raises up its triune value system, the now-cliched "liberte, egalite, fraternite." Perhaps that once meant something, perhaps not. Today it's a banner -- or ceiling, is a better word, that the French use to ascertain the upper limit of action before it damages the status quo. The 35 hour work week, some of the largest vacation time allotments in the world, and excessive welfare provisions all have no better expression than the unwillingness of the French to fight for something. A fight is a shakeup of the status quo; it spills coffee and bumps the artist's hand while he's at the easel. Of course, the French go to work, some to the army. But very few French will deny the claim that the French quality of life is the best in the world. Leaders on the French left trump this claim as proof of the success of the French model, and proclaim that they will never give up the model, and the lifestyle that it produces, no matter what the cost. But it's that last phrase that curdles. What is the cost? There's no need to rehash France's huge domestic problems, including, but not limited to, what is amounting to a population invasion by a group that has little desire to give up religious values that drown out the comparatively feeble calls for liberte, egalite, etc. The French want to say there is no problem, or the problem is only a social one -- a sociological one, one that is solved by resource and integration. Well, there are two lessons to learn from the British. The first is that no matter how wealthy, how fluent in the language, and how gainfully employed your fifth columners might be, they, at times, are still eager to blow themselves up in buses, because they see each other, and not their countrymen who sing about "fraternite," as their true brothers. Perhaps not all of them, but enough. The second lesson is Orwell's. A pleasant society, a society that values its lifestyle and how its citizens interact with one another and not WHY they interact with one another (a moral purpose in a nation), has no need for violence. It abjures it. It looks around at and sees a supremely healthy, if flawed, society. One that integrates others because, it reasons, it has what everyone wants-- it's beautiful quality of life. Perhaps the French of the spring of 1940 saw things the same way: "the Nazis aren't so bad." What was the litmus test that led France into Vichy? Very simple: Will agreeing with the Nazis change our lifestyle more or less than disagreeing with them? France chose clearly in 1940. Today the question is the same, but more acute. The majority of French society has chosen: agree, integrate, appease, and relate. Make excuses and find hidden causes for outrageous acts of violence committed (around the world) by a certain religious group. "It cannot be the fault of the group, since we know better than to fault groups, therefore it must be the fault of the country; our fault, not their fault." Sarkozy's plans to bring France into the modern global economy are much more than just social plans. They are, to borrow a term, transcendental. If he is successful, he will change the nature of France by it. But in the end it is not Sarkozy but the people of France that must choose, that must ask themselves if there aren't real principles hiding behind the preferences of their nation.
 
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Herald1234    Vietnam syndrom.   10/4/2007 8:19:25 PM
You argue that the ruling class is the same in all nation's GoG, and you might have a point.
 
But you have to look at the nature of that ruling class.
 
Despicable elements-[and yes FS could be considered possibly representative of such in France as Robert McNamara is possibly representative in the US; can damage a nation's resolve and poison its polity, There don't have to be many poseurs to cause enormous harm. I don't jest when I call the despicables the poisonous1%. The key is to marginalize and compartmentalize the 1% of the Ecume' de la Terre in any nation.
 
Until the garbage floated to the top in the US in the 1960s, we had a rather decent ruling class. They actually had the best interests of the people ultimately in their hearts and believed in the REPUBLIC. Many of them still do, but we find ourselves afficted today with the Murthas, the Reids, the Kennedys-good imitations of the Vallingdingham TRAITORs who've plagued our union always. 
 
So it isn't just France who has poseurs.
 
Every nation struggles with that scum factor-EVERY nation.
 
Its just that historically we can demonstrate that the British tends to corral their scum and deal with them when the chips are down better than most nations.
 
Napoleon, Hitler, the Soviet menace---------the British had their traitors and pro-enemy factions, butr they never budged from their Britishness.
 
Else that American poseur and despicable character, the bootlegger and financial racketeer Joseph Kennedy would have been right. "England will have her neck wrung like a chicken in six weeks."
 
Churchhill's answer to that piece of garbage was this; "Some Chicken! Some Neck!"
 
You can't lead if they won't follow you, GoG.
 
You know what the approval of our poseur and liar filled Congress is, GoG?
 
13% of us approve of those buffoons.
 
 The American people won't follow garbage.
 
Herald
 
 
 
 
 
   
 
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Godofgamblers       10/4/2007 10:06:14 PM
Your points are well taken, Herald. And I shall read up on the Kennedys that you mention since I know nothing about them and your comments about them are very interesting.
 
As for politicians, we are in full agreement. I remember one of my favorite writers, Erich Maria Remarque, once wrote that if conflicts could be decided by putting all the politicians into an arena in bath towels armed with clubs to fight it out, there would be no more war because none of them has any heart or any mettle to do anything except to send young men off to die...
 
 
 
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gf0012-aust       10/7/2007 6:29:38 AM

gf0012, always a pleasure to discuss issues with you. And yes, I know about such plans and have no reason to doubt that they would have been carried out. But that is only more fuel to my argument because those plans were made by Churchill himself and only a man such as Churchill would have come up with plans like that and would have carried them out.

 

Churchill's greatest achievement was his refusal to capitulate when defeat seemed imminent, and he remained a strong opponent of any negotiations with Germany throughout the war. Few others in the Cabinet had this degree of resolve. By adopting a policy of no surrender, Churchill kept democracy alive in the UK and created the basis for the later Allied counter-attacks of 1942-45, with Britain serving as a platform for the supply of Soviet Union and the liberation of Western Europe. (wiki)
 

The reason why I persist in this argument is that it is too easy to ascribe everything to 'character' or 'backbone' and to explain the events of WW2 by making statements such as 'the French love to surrender' or 'the British have spirit'. In fact, a historian would not seriously consider either statement. He would find it more productive to study previous events to explain the turn of events.

I certainly don't subscribe to the notion that the french are lacking in backbone or are military cowards - I do however subscribe to a view that the brits historically react when pushed into a corner.
My view is that even if Churchill wasn't present, then there are others who would have stepped up to the plate and demonstrated spirit.  After all, the royal family was a classic example of this, and the brit royal family in their own right triggered support when they took the other royal families of europe in as refugees.  ie, they helped construct a counterforce by association.
 
The British had far more Churchills and Beaverbrooks than they had Chamberlains.  MY personal opinion is that the french were let down by leadership, and that they were probably more sympathetic at the political leadership level towards the facsists.
 
(If you want an example of this then look at French attitudes to the horrors of Guernica)
 
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