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Subject: French pacifism: the paragon of bourgeois
Sambation    8/21/2007 8:50:19 AM
“Turn-the-other-cheek pacifism,” George Orwell observed in 1941, “only flourishes among the more prosperous classes, or among workers who have in some way escaped from their own class. The real working class . . . are never really pacifist, because their life teaches them something different. To abjure violence it is necessary to have no experience of it.” It's no coincidence that Orwell made this remark in 1941, months after the French capitulated to the Germans. There's a very simply-put but complex question about France: does it, today, have any values? My answer is equally simple and complex: no, it has only a lifestyle. Or, to be more fair, the country values only its lifestyle. It raises up its triune value system, the now-cliched "liberte, egalite, fraternite." Perhaps that once meant something, perhaps not. Today it's a banner -- or ceiling, is a better word, that the French use to ascertain the upper limit of action before it damages the status quo. The 35 hour work week, some of the largest vacation time allotments in the world, and excessive welfare provisions all have no better expression than the unwillingness of the French to fight for something. A fight is a shakeup of the status quo; it spills coffee and bumps the artist's hand while he's at the easel. Of course, the French go to work, some to the army. But very few French will deny the claim that the French quality of life is the best in the world. Leaders on the French left trump this claim as proof of the success of the French model, and proclaim that they will never give up the model, and the lifestyle that it produces, no matter what the cost. But it's that last phrase that curdles. What is the cost? There's no need to rehash France's huge domestic problems, including, but not limited to, what is amounting to a population invasion by a group that has little desire to give up religious values that drown out the comparatively feeble calls for liberte, egalite, etc. The French want to say there is no problem, or the problem is only a social one -- a sociological one, one that is solved by resource and integration. Well, there are two lessons to learn from the British. The first is that no matter how wealthy, how fluent in the language, and how gainfully employed your fifth columners might be, they, at times, are still eager to blow themselves up in buses, because they see each other, and not their countrymen who sing about "fraternite," as their true brothers. Perhaps not all of them, but enough. The second lesson is Orwell's. A pleasant society, a society that values its lifestyle and how its citizens interact with one another and not WHY they interact with one another (a moral purpose in a nation), has no need for violence. It abjures it. It looks around at and sees a supremely healthy, if flawed, society. One that integrates others because, it reasons, it has what everyone wants-- it's beautiful quality of life. Perhaps the French of the spring of 1940 saw things the same way: "the Nazis aren't so bad." What was the litmus test that led France into Vichy? Very simple: Will agreeing with the Nazis change our lifestyle more or less than disagreeing with them? France chose clearly in 1940. Today the question is the same, but more acute. The majority of French society has chosen: agree, integrate, appease, and relate. Make excuses and find hidden causes for outrageous acts of violence committed (around the world) by a certain religious group. "It cannot be the fault of the group, since we know better than to fault groups, therefore it must be the fault of the country; our fault, not their fault." Sarkozy's plans to bring France into the modern global economy are much more than just social plans. They are, to borrow a term, transcendental. If he is successful, he will change the nature of France by it. But in the end it is not Sarkozy but the people of France that must choose, that must ask themselves if there aren't real principles hiding behind the preferences of their nation.
 
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french stratege       10/4/2007 9:03:46 AM
Anybody can check actual numbers on the front.Of course german achieved local number superiority on their attacking points but overall British and allied had strong numerical superiority like in Creta (two time superiority plus few tanks and artillery) or North Africa (up to 3 time and even more in tanks sometimes).
 
Read Liddle Hart famous  "military history of world war two"
 
I thnik you know it Herald and so you lie.
 
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Herald1234    I know it quite well, bungleur.   10/4/2007 9:29:30 AM
That is why I hold you in utter contempt as a poseur,  poseur1.
 
You know the superficial BS and leap instantly to wrong conclusions based on what you superficially understand or misunderstand, but you don't know the DETAIL inside the problem, or the WHY of things.
 
Herald
 
 
 
 
 
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gf0012-aust       10/4/2007 10:22:14 AM


The royal family was pro german for a part BTW before war.
 

most of the royal houses of europe were related to the remnants of the german royal family within 2-generations - that didn't stop the germans belting their relatives (and they were emotionally attached to the british via hitler)



Whatever military british leadership was crap on ground until El Alamein with massive disasters like Tobruk, Greece , Creta.. while being in strong numerical superiority over germans!
 

which version of tobruk are you talking about?  we seem to have done a fine job of belting rommel about and stalling his plans.  the RAF had the equiv of a short squadron to protect the med and managed to do fine.
france IYRC had a massive advantage across various spectrum against the germans and still got rolled like a bagel.  superior technology but pretty ordinary leadership. 


The overseas based governement to continue fight if UK were invaded was only words.


Hardly, both canada and australia were part of the contingency plans. both countries had robust industrial bases to take advantage of.
up until 1942, any relocation of the royal family to canada would have seen the Brit Pacific Fleet permanentlt located to Sydney, and an air and sub war waged from canada


 
 
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french stratege       10/4/2007 11:35:33 AM
france IYRC had a massive advantage across various spectrum against the germans and still got rolled like a bagel.  superior technology but pretty ordinary leadership. 
Which superiority?
Strong inferiority in air power and in communications.Strong inferiority in mechanized infantry.
Both were key paramater for a blitzkrieg campaign.
Demonstrated from 1940 to 2003.
We had a superiority in heavy (and less mobile) artillery (so uselss in a blitzkrieg campaign) and armor of tanks (but less mobiles and german had superiority in rate of fire and coordination).
 
Now Herald it is you who prove everyday to be superficial.
 
 
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Herald1234       10/4/2007 1:50:29 PM

france IYRC had a massive advantage across various spectrum against the germans and still got rolled like a bagel.  superior technology but pretty ordinary leadership. 
Which superiority?

Strong inferiority in air power and in communications.Strong inferiority in mechanized infantry.

Both were key paramater for a blitzkrieg campaign.

Demonstrated from 1940 to 2003.

We had a superiority in heavy (and less mobile) artillery (so uselss in a blitzkrieg campaign) and armor of tanks (but less mobiles and german had superiority in rate of fire and coordination).

 

Now Herald it is you who prove everyday to be superficial.

 


Who knew the truth in DETAIL about Bar Hakeim and Monte Cassino, prevaricator?
 
I will continue to beat your lying mendacity up with the truth, like an ugly rug of lies on the line, until at last you admit that you are what you are, poseur1. Either that or have your credibility totally destroyed-not that it isn't among many here already you, Schatten der Marionette, poseur1.     
CONTEMPT.
 
Herald
 
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french stratege       10/4/2007 3:21:38 PM
You were worng for Monte Cassino and Bir Hakeim.Herald.Proved by links.
 
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Herald1234    In your lying dreams, you fool.    10/4/2007 3:54:28 PM
If those "links' are the best you have, then the evidence I gave above already mproves that you are a LIAR.
 
Understand that word, poseur?
 
L.I.A.R.
 
UTTER DERISION.
 
Herald
 
 
 
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french stratege       10/4/2007 4:25:34 PM
Herlad
Either you prove your assertions with serious links or you leave this french board to pollute elsewhere.
And if you continue to insult I will ask Sysops to throw you away..
 
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Herald1234    Look FS   10/4/2007 4:42:28 PM
You are an egotist and you are a factual joke.
 
You CONFORM to my dictates.
 
If you can prove your case, then try and FAIL.;
 
Otherwise, get stuffed. I show no mercy in debate.
 
You are allowed no refuge to spread your errors. NONE.
 
You will be called-everywhere to defend your errors.
 
DEAL.
 
Herald 
 
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Godofgamblers       10/4/2007 7:51:36 PM
gf0012, always a pleasure to discuss issues with you. And yes, I know about such plans and have no reason to doubt that they would have been carried out. But that is only more fuel to my argument because those plans were made by Churchill himself and only a man such as Churchill would have come up with plans like that and would have carried them out.
 
Churchill's greatest achievement was his refusal to capitulate when defeat seemed imminent, and he remained a strong opponent of any negotiations with Germany throughout the war. Few others in the Cabinet had this degree of resolve. By adopting a policy of no surrender, Churchill kept democracy alive in the UK and created the basis for the later Allied counter-attacks of 1942-45, with Britain serving as a platform for the supply of Soviet Union and the liberation of Western Europe. (wiki)
 
The reason why I persist in this argument is that it is too easy to ascribe everything to 'character' or 'backbone' and to explain the events of WW2 by making statements such as 'the French love to surrender' or 'the British have spirit'. In fact, a historian would not seriously consider either statement. He would find it more productive to study previous events to explain the turn of events.
 
If we look at the Dreyfuss affair, we see a France deeply divided between the 'enlightened' (Zola et al) and a very deeply rooted anti-semitic, reactionary, Catholic, fascist element.
 
These are precisely elements that are key in the formation of Vichy France, as verdunjp mentioned above.
 
(I believe these are precisely the dynamics that Sambaktion wishes to discuss.)
 
I maintain that British 'resolve' was a factor of Churchill's leadership and the BoB and not a function of superior elites or officers. The Brits were equally open to folding and giving in to the Nazis pre-Churchill. Chamberlain was no anomoly but an establishment figure. The French had the same level of elites and officers but had no island to fall back to in time of war. They found the fascist way strangely compelling (for the reason I mentioned above).
 
Many in France, in fact, hearken back to absolutist days and to a right wing, almost monarchistic system, FS among them perhaps. This is what separates France from UK, not any abstract character traits.
 
So I put the ball back in your court, gf0012 and Herald:)
 
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