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Subject: France Calls To Lift China Arms Embargo
Softwar    3/15/2007 9:28:53 AM
TOKYO, March 15, 2007 (AFP) - France's defence minister on Thursday renewed her government's call to lift the EU arms embargo on China, denouncing opposition to the move as illogical. Michele Alliot-Marie made the remarks in Japan, which with the United States has strongly protested French-led moves to end the embargo. "There is a lack of logic in the position of some," Alliot-Marie said before a meeting with her Japanese counterpart Fumio Kyuma. She called it "paradoxical" to "maintain the embargo for political reasons while at the same time giving China the Olympics, which are supposed to go solely to countries that respect international rules." Alliot-Marie said lifting the embargo would not pose a threat, arguing that European and French rules on arms exports "are even stricter than the rules of the embargo." Outgoing French President Jacques Chirac has been a chief proponent of ending the arms embargo, which was imposed after China's bloody crackdown on pro-democracy students in Tiananmen Square in 1989. Japan and the United States have protested the move and voiced concern about China's military spending, which is due to rise some 18 percent this year. But Alliot-Marie said it was "normal" for China "to expand its defence equipment in light of the role that it is playing and will be drawn to play in the world due to its population and economic power." Still, Alliot-Marie said she understood Japanese concerns that China's military spending was not transparent and would press Beijing on the matter when she visits. "What is important is for China's military power to be put to the service of peace," said Alliot-Marie, starting a regional tour that will also take her to Beijing and Seoul.
 
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eldnah       3/15/2007 9:45:41 AM
May I offer a translation of Mme. Alliot-Marie statements? There is money to be made by the French Arms Industry in China. Always remember, a sou is a sou.
 
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ProDemocracy    Arms   3/15/2007 9:54:21 AM
France has a high opinion of the quality of its arms...why in the world would they want to sell their arms and technology to China?  A country which has the economic potential to create a formidable war machine(unlike say, Iran)?  A communist country?  A country which supports rogue regimes like North Korea and has helped Iran with its nuclear program (which France claims to oppose)?  A country which is now very much a rival to France for their limited influence in Africa? 
 
This is very irresponsible at the very least - if you ever wondered why the US does not trust you completely as an ally like we do the UK and Japan, this is a prime example.
 
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Berova       3/15/2007 10:15:07 AM
The answers to the many questions of why is, as the old saying goes, France is being penny-wise and pound foolish.  But I offer up a slightly different perspective to consider, France's arms industry in general is in a world of hurt, their own procurement cannot justify or economicly sustain it, but it isn't getting enough export orders to keep it going either.  From a long-term strategic sense, if France can open up a new "vast" market, she can maintain her defense R&D and hope to stay with the state of the art.

Most of us realize, this is indeed foolish in the long run with the PRC because China is trolling, by any means possible, for defense technology in an effort to "catch-up" in capability equal to its economic status.  The Russians have realized this, but like the addict, find it difficult to stop.  France can very much find itself in a similar position.  Furthermore, France will find the China market is illusory, the short term billions is enticing, but the technology will flow no matter the safeguards and it will not do much to change the larger of equation that France still would not be able to sustain her defense industry technologies
 
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FJV    Not smart diplomatically.   3/15/2007 2:03:03 PM
Not very smart IMHO. Japan is increasingly worried about Chinese defense spending. And then to make remarks while you're a guest in their country about wanting to sell weapons to China. Bad timing and a bad way to behave as a guest (you really put your host on the spot).

This will not increase the Japanese opinion of France.





 

 
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Herc the Merc    Actually it makes sense-why not??   3/15/2007 2:09:03 PM
French export market is not good. France is treated like a step child of the Western alliance, in fact there are frequent posters that accuse France of being an enemy of the US -what more?? If France moved forward with military sales to China its completely understandable. The only issue is backlash from others-- so France may have to choose Dannon exports to others or Rafales for PRC?? In my honest estimate FRance could rack up $5-10billion annually selling to China. Juicy!! 
 
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Softwar       3/15/2007 2:22:59 PM
It won't happen unless the EU goes for it.  Right now - after the A-Sat test - the EU is in no mood to talk weaponry with Beijing.  France will still try to back-door some stuff to China but the consequences - cut off of tech access in the UK, Germany and US are likely to result if any overt move is made by Paris alone.
 
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ProDemocracy       3/15/2007 3:08:54 PM
So because of a few US posters who get easily excited, you are going to support selling arms to China?  A country which has the economic potential to create a formidable war machine(unlike say, Iran)?  A communist country?  A country which supports rogue regimes like North Korea and has helped Iran with its nuclear program (which France claims to oppose)?  A country which is now very much a rival to France for their limited influence in Africa?  Maybe that's why France is treated as a step-child of the western alliance (which I do not dispute or deny) - because of actions such as this!
French export market is not good. France is treated like a step child of the Western alliance, in fact there are frequent posters that accuse France of being an enemy of the US -what more?? If France moved forward with military sales to China its completely understandable. The only issue is backlash from others-- so France may have to choose Dannon exports to others or Rafales for PRC?? In my honest estimate FRance could rack up $5-10billion annually selling to China. Juicy!! 



 
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Herc the Merc    ProD   3/15/2007 3:30:56 PM
I do not support selling arms to China. But France has a need to do so and should weigh its actions in view of its best interest and Chinas intended end use.  Plus the French defence minister has a convincing legal case. But EU will not support at this point. I doubt the French defence independence could survive without significant exports, and considering the behaviour of US towards FRance, not at the discussion forum level, but also in the government eg France should be "contained" , "Freedom Fries", watching the F-35 dilemna, etc etc etc France has full justification to serve her own interests. We made our bed with France and now we refuse to lie in it.
 
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Softwar       3/15/2007 4:20:02 PM

I do not support selling arms to China. But France has a need to do so and should weigh its actions in view of its best interest and Chinas intended end use.  Plus the French defence minister has a convincing legal case. But EU will not support at this point. I doubt the French defence independence could survive without significant exports, and considering the behaviour of US towards FRance, not at the discussion forum level, but also in the government eg France should be "contained" , "Freedom Fries", watching the F-35 dilemna, etc etc etc France has full justification to serve her own interests. We made our bed with France and now we refuse to lie in it.



The legal structure that Paris signed onto is the EU will decide as a whole - and no single member can act without the consent of the whole.
 
However, France has acted before - for example - selling bomb fuses and Mirage F-1 parts to Iraq in violation of the UN arms embargo.  Nice - with friends like these who needs enemies?
 
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scuttlebut steve    Herc, we all know why you want this and it has nothing to do with the state of france's export market   3/22/2007 11:38:36 PM

French export market is not good. France is treated like a step child of the Western alliance, in fact there are frequent posters that accuse France of being an enemy of the US -what more?? If France moved forward with military sales to China its completely understandable. The only issue is backlash from others-- so France may have to choose Dannon exports to others or Rafales for PRC?? In my honest estimate FRance could rack up $5-10billion annually selling to China. Juicy!! 


This is why France is looked at as an enemy by some.  France has long held the position of "arms dealers to the enemies of the west", selling anything to anyone with no regard for their western "allies" who end up having to deal with these authoritarian nations.  France shows the morals of drug dealers, saying its just business as they sell out the free world to the worst nations on the planet.  The "stepchild of the western alliance" has made the choice to be so and is thus treated that way.
Herc pulls for this not because of of France's wellbeing but due to your belief that china is not an enemy of free people's everywhere.  Thread after thread you unceasingly devote yourself to defending the PRC as one of the great countries of the world, defending every horrible aspect of that authoritairan abomination that has held back a billion+ people for 50+ years.  Your loyalties are well known, and they arent with the west.  China is an enemy Herc, and just like most of the French government you either wont believe it or you dont care.
 
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