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Subject: Who's the most elite?
BasinBictory    12/30/2005 4:41:55 AM
The thread below about SEALs vs. SAS got me thinking - what is the SPECOPS unit that has the highest "washout" rate? If a couple of shows I've watched on the Discovery Channel and a few books I've read are accurate indicators, the SAS is far more selective and more difficult to get into than the SEALs. I seem to recall that among SEALs, even those who have washed out of previous BUD/S classes two, three or even four times are allowed to try yet again. (Of course, if their washout was due to injury, then it is understandable) However, I recall that for SAS, the second washout is for life. You will not be invited back EVER to compete for a slot in the 22nd.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Who's the most elite?   12/30/2005 3:55:14 PM
>>The thread below about SEALs vs. SAS got me thinking - what is the SPECOPS unit that has the highest "washout" rate? If a couple of shows I've watched on the Discovery Channel and a few books I've read are accurate indicators, the SAS is far more selective and more difficult to get into than the SEALs. I seem to recall that among SEALs, even those who have washed out of previous BUD/S classes two, three or even four times are allowed to try yet again. (Of course, if their washout was due to injury, then it is understandable) However, I recall that for SAS, the second washout is for life. You will not be invited back EVER to compete for a slot in the 22nd. << US Pararescue probably has the highest publicized wash out rate, at least for US special operations, though that would not include Delta and whatever their pass/fail rate is. As for SEALs, Army Special Forces, etc., guys may or may not be allowed to come back for the selection program. For Army SF, at least, a guy who is really not cutting it can be dropped with Never to Return annotated on his records. On the other hand, lots of guys are hard chargers who may have what it takes, but their land nav skills are not where they should be -- since land nav is one of the major go/no-go critera, letting these guys come back after getting more spun up on land nav is not necessarily a bad thing. In any evalutaion program you will have those who fail because they can't cut it, but also those who fail as an artifact of the evaluation process. Part of mking that evaluation program effective is figuring out ways to minimize the latter by, for instance, letting otherwise qualified personnel come back to try again.
 
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Ehran    RE:Who's the most elite?   12/30/2005 5:56:38 PM
if you just look at % of applicants to % of graduates the royal army ghurkas have to be way up near the top of the list. they graduate something like a third of a percent of the applicants in a typical year.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Who's the most elite?   12/30/2005 6:16:19 PM
>>if you just look at % of applicants to % of graduates the royal army ghurkas have to be way up near the top of the list. they graduate something like a third of a percent of the applicants in a typical year. << They are not near the top, they are the top, if you look strictly at application versus acceptance rates. Of course, they are also not really a special operations force, just a very very good light infantry force . . .
 
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GOP    RE:Who's the most elite?   12/30/2005 6:47:26 PM
USAF pararescue has the highest *public* washout rate at about 78%. Of course, Delta is reportedly in the 92% range (equal to SAS), and who really knows what goes on at The Farm (CIA SAD)... it could be as high as 98%. Who's the most elite? All of them are elite, because in Specops, the operator is what is valuable...so it varies from operator to operator. All of the units have tough training...for example: SEALs: Hell week is absolutely horrendous, it truly makes a SEAL or breaks a recruit. Delta: They have, I believe, a 40 mile ruck that has to be completed in a unknown amount of time...you have to navigate yourself through the mountains/valleys around Fort Bragg and push yourself to the limit...extremely tough. SF: Their Robin-Sage course at the end of the Q course requires you to use your mind and gives each recruit a taste of what it is like to work with indigs on a real mission in very rough conditions...this can be considered more mental, but if you make (and ALOT don't), then you have earned the right to wear the Green Beret. Every SOF unit has tough training, and when you get to this level, every operator is advanced...the only major difference is the mission
 
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GOP    RE:Who's the most elite?   12/30/2005 6:48:54 PM
>"They are not near the top, they are the top, if you look strictly at application versus acceptance rates. Of course, they are also not really a special operations force, just a very very good light infantry force . . ."< Now, I am not going start ranking light infantry forces, but it is safe to say they are definitely, definitely in the top 2
 
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BasinBictory    RE:Who's the most elite?   12/30/2005 11:44:16 PM
Perhaps the percentage of pass/fail isn't all that representative of "toughness", based on the assumption that ANY applicant to a SOF force is already very, very qualified, and usually has had an already exemplary career. The Gurkhas are a group of regiments still under the administrative control of the British Army, correct? Does someone have to join the British Army first, go through boot training, and then apply to whatever regiment they want? Or, in the case of the Gurkhas, is it simply Gurkhas that decide they want to be part of the regiment who apply out of the general population?
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Who's the most elite?   12/31/2005 1:55:05 PM
>>USAF pararescue has the highest *public* washout rate at about 78%. Of course, Delta is reportedly in the 92% range (equal to SAS), and who really knows what goes on at The Farm (CIA SAD)... it could be as high as 98%.<< A lot of the CIA's guys have trouble learning how to run in clown shoes . . .
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Who's the most elite?   12/31/2005 1:56:51 PM
>>SF: Their Robin-Sage course at the end of the Q course requires you to use your mind and gives each recruit a taste of what it is like to work with indigs on a real mission in very rough conditions...this can be considered more mental, but if you make (and ALOT don't), then you have earned the right to wear the Green Beret.<< If you make it to Robin Sage the odds of you failing out of the pipeline are vanishingly remote -- recycled, perhaps, but not gone, the Army has already spent too much $$$ on you, and you've already demonstrated you have what it takes. Most SF pipeline failures are during SFAS or Small Unit Tactics.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Who's the most elite?   12/31/2005 2:12:55 PM
>>Perhaps the percentage of pass/fail isn't all that representative of "toughness", based on the assumption that ANY applicant to a SOF force is already very, very qualified, and usually has had an already exemplary career.<< That's not necessarily true for US SOF (and various other organizations elsewhere in the world . . .). If memory serves me correctly, a recruit coming in off the street can go directly (well, more or less directly -- they have to undergo basic training and may have to do initial job training, depending on the service and the particular SOF unit) to the selection phase for USN SEALs and SBUs, USAF Pararescue and Combat Controllers (but not SOF TACPs . . .), US Army Rangers and Special Forces and (from what ZackG posted a while back) USMC Force Recon. I believe you can also go pretty much directly to AFSOC flying units as an enlisted crewman, though I think they are a bit more rigorous with their pilots and other officers. You can't go directly to 160th SOAR or Delta, within the Army, or some of the other JSOC units. >>The Gurkhas are a group of regiments still under the administrative control of the British Army, correct? Does someone have to join the British Army first, go through boot training, and then apply to whatever regiment they want? Or, in the case of the Gurkhas, is it simply Gurkhas that decide they want to be part of the regiment who apply out of the general population?<< Gurkha selection rates are based on civilian applicants trying to get into their training pipeline, so it is different from guys applying for SAS or SBS, etc.
 
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GOP    RE:Who's the most elite?   12/31/2005 9:31:43 PM
>"If you make it to Robin Sage the odds of you failing out of the pipeline are vanishingly remote -- recycled, perhaps, but not gone, the Army has already spent too much $$$ on you, and you've already demonstrated you have what it takes. Most SF pipeline failures are during SFAS or Small Unit Tactics."< You are correct here, my bad. I did a little more research...it appears that Robin-Sage is basically a culmination of the skills you learn at SFAS and the Q course. The SFAS part of SF training probably has the highest attrition rate. >"a recruit coming in off the street can go directly to the selection phase for...and Force Recon"< The Force Recon part is not true, you have to have been a Marine for 3 years before you can undergo the BRC.
 
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