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Subject: What Special Forces are the best?
mike14    2/15/2005 2:27:20 PM
I think the Austrian Special Forces or US Navy Seals
 
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dirtykraut       6/22/2007 4:59:03 PM




But we are not your allies kane. I think Turkey refusing to have the 4th ID invade from Turkey into Northern Iraq was uncontested proof of this. If you think that action has no consequence on future events and the relationshop between our countries, you would be wrong. We won't forget it. To be an ally, you must act like an ally. And quite frankly, the Kurds have been far better friends than you guys ever were. They aren't giving us a hard time in the North, and are very cooperative. While I do not support terrorism in any shape or form, be it from Arabs, Kurds, or anyone. But I won't lose sleep over the fact that we do not support Turkish incursions into Iraq to attack the Kurds, which the turks have done for shits and grins for a long time. So is it any wonder why we support the Kurds and not the Turks. I for one, would rather support the people who have helped me out, or at the very least, did not give me a hard time. I don't have much time for a people who pretends to be our ally for their benefit yet deny us the use of Turkey to attack Iraq.




Go and tell these to leaders of USA so that we know whet you are our allies or not because they say we are your allies :)
Kurds are more cooperative?Ahahah of course they are, you are supporting them with weapon and giving them hopes to build a country supported by USA.Something like 1950s Israel
And well you're not looking it from Turkish point of view.Let's say you have good relations with Mexico.We declared war on them for a silly reason, would you attack and get in to trouble with whole south America and get in a great danger.
Now think of Turkey, we are LIVING here and people you kill are our NEIGHBOURs and I can't really say they love us.Every action has a reaction, we'd be 10 times more damaged than you are in a war which has no real good reason.I personally believe we should got into N.Iraq but Americans said "YOU WON'T FIGHT PKK".Now what does that mean?This is more than being an allies, this is being a puppet nation.

The Turks and the Iraqis were never good friends. And you did not have to attack, you could have allowed us to use your bases. The Arabs are not too fond of the Turks anyways, and you all claim to be more European than Asian, so yes, I would pick a damn side. Yes, we support the kurds because they are Pro USA, that is why we are in Iraq. It would be nice to have a pro US area in the region. As for 1950's Israel, I think you will find that it was the US who held back the Brits, French, and Israelis during the Suez crisis. European guilt is perhaps the main reason why Zionism was actualized. If Mexico had been invading other central American countries 16 years ago, and had used chemical weapons against them, I would not be too worried about the Mexicans being invaded. And while you and many others think the reasons for the war are ridiculous, many people believe that what is happening in the Middle East is long overdue. The world is not against the war in Iraq because Iraqis are being killed, they are against the war in Iraq because they believe the US is so arrogant that it will invade countries with or without their consent. It's about damaged ego's, not altruism. The Turks believe it or not, made a decision when they refused to allow the Americans to attack from Turkey. And that's fine. But don't play both sides of the stick. You made a choice, and you didn't choose to support us. Now I don't mean this as a "your with us or agaisnt us", but allies generally like each other, and do things for each other. If you act neutrally, than you will get a neutral relationship with the US. Like you said, every action has a reaction.
 
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kane       6/23/2007 3:49:44 AM








But we are not your allies kane. I think Turkey refusing to have the 4th ID invade from Turkey into Northern Iraq was uncontested proof of this. If you think that action has no consequence on future events and the relationshop between our countries, you would be wrong. We won't forget it. To be an ally, you must act like an ally. And quite frankly, the Kurds have been far better friends than you guys ever were. They aren't giving us a hard time in the North, and are very cooperative. While I do not support terrorism in any shape or form, be it from Arabs, Kurds, or anyone. But I won't lose sleep over the fact that we do not support Turkish incursions into Iraq to attack the Kurds, which the turks have done for shits and grins for a long time. So is it any wonder why we support the Kurds and not the Turks. I for one, would rather support the people who have helped me out, or at the very least, did not give me a hard time. I don't have much time for a people who pretends to be our ally for their benefit yet deny us the use of Turkey to attack Iraq.






Go and tell these to leaders of USA so that we know whet you are our allies or not because they say we are your allies :)
Kurds are more cooperative?Ahahah of course they are, you are supporting them with weapon and giving them hopes to build a country supported by USA.Something like 1950s Israel
And well you're not looking it from Turkish point of view.Let's say you have good relations with Mexico.We declared war on them for a silly reason, would you attack and get in to trouble with whole south America and get in a great danger.
Now think of Turkey, we are LIVING here and people you kill are our NEIGHBOURs and I can't really say they love us.Every action has a reaction, we'd be 10 times more damaged than you are in a war which has no real good reason.I personally believe we should got into N.Iraq but Americans said "YOU WON'T FIGHT PKK".Now what does that mean?This is more than being an allies, this is being a puppet nation.


The Turks and the Iraqis were never good friends. And you did not have to attack, you could have allowed us to use your bases. The Arabs are not too fond of the Turks anyways, and you all claim to be more European than Asian, so yes, I would pick a damn side. Yes, we support the kurds because they are Pro USA, that is why we are in Iraq. It would be nice to have a pro US area in the region. As for 1950's Israel, I think you will find that it was the US who held back the Brits, French, and Israelis during the Suez crisis. European guilt is perhaps the main reason why Zionism was actualized. If Mexico had been invading other central American countries 16 years ago, and had used chemical weapons against them, I would not be too worried about the Mexicans being invaded. And while you and many others think the reasons for the war are ridiculous, many people believe that what is happening in the Middle East is long overdue. The world is not against the war in Iraq because Iraqis are being killed, they are against the war in Iraq because they believe the US is so arrogant that it will invade countries with or without their consent. It's about damaged ego's, not altruism. The Turks believe it or not, made a decision when they refused to allow the Americans to attack from Turkey. And that's fine. But don't play both sides of the stick. You made a choice, and you didn't choose to support us. Now I don't mean this as a "your with us or agaisnt us", but allies generally like each other, and do things for each other. If you act neutrally, than you will get a neutral relationship with the US. Like you said, every action has a reaction.

USA still has bases in Turkey and your planes still take of from here
You've got 20 nukes located on our soil
I'm not going to mention the the support back in 50s .(to a country which tried to seperate Turkey into 4 just after 1.World war)

You do not understand the reasons we didn't let America use our soil.It was NOT because we don't like you.It was to prevent the outcome.Because last time(GW1) 500k refugees passed to Turkey(yeah no oone else but us,we hve to look after them) came to Turkey causing terror,unemployment,screwed cultural mixture.And we're still dealing with these.Because NO ONE GOES BACK when they come to Turkey
Than in a region like this supporting USA in arguable war like that would have caused a rise in possible terrorists actions(hey we are MORE vulnarable-(pop is muslims and we can not know whether they're under control of a damn cult,immigrant,already seperatists terrorists)
 
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dirtykraut       6/23/2007 10:28:58 PM
I'll continue the discussion this with you later. I'll be away for a few weeks.
 
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GOP       6/24/2007 2:46:43 PM







Well, the body count is not the most important part of that conflict
but that incident was almost a repetition of Gulf Of Tonkin Incident.



About the body count: There were 11 Turkish soldiers. The team
commander Major aydin E. said, "They were approaching so clumsyly that
we could kill at least 60 and we will also die, but it would sore the
relations of the two nations incurably"



Sorry for the translation. The original is like this:

"O kadar acemice geliyorlardi ki, en az 60 kisiyi öldürürdük, biz de ölürdük ama iki ülke arasinda kapanmaz bir yara olusurdu"



Ops, sorry, I have learned it was the major who decided and gave order
not to fire. In fact it was obvious from the translation.






Dude, use your fucking brain. If we would have wanted to kill Turkish SOF, do you think we would use ground troops? No, we would have hit them with some JDAM's and some armor, then follow with ground troops. We have thousands of troops in that area (dozens of SOF guys), thousands of Iraqi military and police (dozens of their SOF guys) abrams, bradleys, apaches, dozens of jets loaded with PGM's, Up armored humvees, Strykers, and other assorted destructive goodness...so the reason your Major didn't fire was because he knew it would be suicidal. 



He could kill 60 US troops? With only 11 guys? SOF guys (not operators anymore, thanks to Mough ) live and die by speed, suprise, and violence of action. If the bad guys know where they are, and they are outnumbered 6-1 (like in this case), and they are surrounded, then they are most likely going to die. SOF guys are not super men (sorry, don't mean that disrespectfully Mough), they die the same as regular troops.



Hey smart guy no one said "Americans were coming to kill"
The thing is, they with peshmerges...they claim that they're our allies and support PKK.This is another good proof that they're actually not our allies and America is supporting a supporter of terrorism
And, this does not change the fact that your guys were vulnarable for an attack
And as the major said, they were ready to open fire and die.Honor is an important thing in Turkish culture(asian origin) thus dying there would be honorfull but in long term it would be bad for Turkey.The result of the conflict
Turks lose prestige and the relations between Turks and Americans are weakened,Kurdish leader in N.Iraq proved that he is a bad guy


I like how you mention honor in your post. Is there alot of honor in sneaking into a "allies" war zone and doing what those guys did? Is there honor in suicide, because attacking the US in Iraq would absolutely be suicidal.
 
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kane       6/24/2007 4:37:52 PM











Well, the body count is not the most important part of that conflict
but that incident was almost a repetition of Gulf Of Tonkin Incident.



About the body count: There were 11 Turkish soldiers. The team
commander Major aydin E. said, "They were approaching so clumsyly that
we could kill at least 60 and we will also die, but it would sore the
relations of the two nations incurably"



Sorry for the translation. The original is like this:

"O kadar acemice geliyorlardi ki, en az 60 kisiyi öldürürdük, biz de ölürdük ama iki ülke arasinda kapanmaz bir yara olusurdu"



Ops, sorry, I have learned it was the major who decided and gave order
not to fire. In fact it was obvious from the translation.








Dude, use your fucking brain. If we would have wanted to kill Turkish SOF, do you think we would use ground troops? No, we would have hit them with some JDAM's and some armor, then follow with ground troops. We have thousands of troops in that area (dozens of SOF guys), thousands of Iraqi military and police (dozens of their SOF guys) abrams, bradleys, apaches, dozens of jets loaded with PGM's, Up armored humvees, Strykers, and other assorted destructive goodness...so the reason your Major didn't fire was because he knew it would be suicidal. 





He could kill 60 US troops? With only 11 guys? SOF guys (not operators anymore, thanks to Mough ) live and die by speed, suprise, and violence of action. If the bad guys know where they are, and they are outnumbered 6-1 (like in this case), and they are surrounded, then they are most likely going to die. SOF guys are not super men (sorry, don't mean that disrespectfully Mough), they die the same as regular troops.





Hey smart guy no one said "Americans were coming to kill"
The thing is, they with peshmerges...they claim that they're our allies and support PKK.This is another good proof that they're actually not our allies and America is supporting a supporter of terrorism
And, this does not change the fact that your guys were vulnarable for an attack
And as the major said, they were ready to open fire and die.Honor is an important thing in Turkish culture(asian origin) thus dying there would be honorfull but in long term it would be bad for Turkey.The result of the conflict
Turks lose prestige and the relations between Turks and Americans are weakened,Kurdish leader in N.Iraq proved that he is a bad guy



I like how you mention honor in your post. Is there alot of honor in sneaking into a "allies" war zone and doing what those guys did? Is there honor in suicide, because attacking the US in Iraq would absolutely be suicidal.

Sneaking?Americans knew a small Turkish fore was in N.Iraq.Actually there is ALWAYS  a TINY force in N.Iraq for intelligence and USA knows this
About honor....well whenever I see you in a discussion there is always a part about honor there is nothing i can do about that.Of course I'm not saying other do not have honor, this is something traditional
(Kurds are even more traditional and cann even kill their daughters for honor :) people(by this I do not mean Kurds in Turkey) you support still lives a feudal life in mountains)
Attacking USA would be suicidal?
Of course it'd be but a soldier can not give up so easily.In that case your guys came to arrest their "allies" and didn't inform anyone about this.At lest your guys could call ours and say"we'll arrest these guys if you don't pull them"
But noooo
And in that event our guys had the advantage while your only had the advantage of numbers
So the firfight could be won by Turkish troops there.All had rifles and uniforms.No planes or anything and those gys could return to Turkey.
What would happen war?No but the relations would be ruined or maybe even improven(yeah you may never know)
 
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Yimmy       6/24/2007 5:28:08 PM

 Is there honor in suicide

Ah, an interesting question.

And the answer is a resounding YES!  Rather unfortunately this seems to have slipped through military tradition however, resulting in many an officer running around who should have fallen on his own sword a long time ago.
 
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kensohaski       6/29/2007 7:54:10 AM
All of these guys are good.  I imagine that they would laugh at us proclaiming which of our wankers was the biggest.
 
I have always wondered about the quality of South Korean or Tawainese spec forces operators.  I imagine they are up there on the quality scale. 
 
It is a coin toss and an unwinnable argument.
 
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mough       6/29/2007 4:05:41 PM
South Koreans, ferociously tough, well trained, top guys

Taiwan, I don't know.
 
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Surefire    ??   8/1/2007 1:38:50 PM
I think you`ll find that the Ozzy special forces are trained by the British special forces! Fact
 
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mough       8/2/2007 11:06:26 AM
Yes the OOAS (Ozzy Osborne air service), the Aussie SASR on the other hand are not, they train with UKSF, they are not trained by
 
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