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Subject: Papanik your wish has been Granted--Force Recon is Back
SCCOMarine    12/30/2008 11:58:20 PM
Like I told you b4 the USMC was not going to go long w/out its own ability to conduct Special Operations. And it was definitely not going to rely own SOCom to lend forces for MAGTF missions. That is the most important piece to all of this, and how I knew that they would bring back a Force Level capability eventually. MAGTF Operations require units to move in a very Precise, Ying & Yang, Economy of Motion type flow. Every unit, whether your talking Infantry, Tanks, Arty, CAS, or SOF type, has to know not only their role but everybody else's in the MAGTF and how to switch fr/ supporting to being supported at a moments notice as if the MAGTF is a giant Swiss Watch. This could not happen borrowing its Special Operations capability fr/SOCOM. It could borrow a SOF sprocket for its time piece but it would not be precisely tooled for MAGTF Operations, which would entail comfortably applying SOF skills to best benefit Manuevering Infantry or whoever which only comes after months of Combined Arms Training & Live Fire together. The interesting thing is to see what the long term implementation for FR is outside of & after Iraq & Afghanistan. Do they return to deployment on the MEU w/the MSOTs? If not do they deploy under the SC MAGTF construct? Do they eventually bring back the MSPF? Do they retain the DAP capability or do they leave that to the MARSOC DASR Teams? Inquiring minds would like to know... I'll paste the FR return article.
 
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SCCOMarine       12/31/2008 5:04:46 PM

Force Recon back at Lejeune


By Bryan Mitchell - Staff writer
Posted : Sunday Dec 28, 2008 10:53:55 EST

Force Recon is back after a nearly two-year break, giving the Corps an additional option for reconnaissance and Special Operations missions.

On Dec. 19, officials at Camp Lejeune, N.C., activated Force Reconnaissance Company as part of 2nd Reconnaissance Battalion. In 2006, many members of a similar unit — 2nd Force Reconnaissance Company, then under II Marine Expeditionary Force — were absorbed into the new Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command.

The activation is expected to be the first of at least three, as similar Force Recon units are to be activated in California and Okinawa, though it's unclear when those will occur.

The 60-Marine unit has been training since June 1 under the title of Delta Company, 2nd Reconnaissance Battalion, and participated in November in an exercise with European allies on the Caribbean island of Curacao.

The Dec. 19 ceremony officially marked the transition from Delta Company to Force Recon Company, said Lt. Col. Lawrence M. Landon, 2nd Recon's battalion commander.

Members of the new company were selected during 2nd Recon's most recent tour to Iraq. The unit plans to double in size to about 120 Marines.

The unit is currently supported by the 2nd Marine Division for logistical and administrative support, but officials plan to shift the company under the command of II MEF.

"Eventually we will come online and be our own self-supporting unit under the MEF commander," said 1st Sgt. Daniel Brown, one of the company's new enlisted leaders.

Brown said the unit will provide the MEF commander with greater capabilities and increased information about the battlefield.

"Some of the parachutes and equipment we use get us in deeper than a division reconnaissance unit can," Brown said. "We can do that through other means, too."

Retired Lt. Col. Dakota Wood, now a senior fellow with the Washington-based Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, said the move to activate the unit comes as senior Marine officials recognized the need for well-trained specialists in the MEF structures.

"You have a capability on the MarSOC side," Wood said, "but they are off doing SOCOM kind of things. But does the MEF commander have, at his side, deep recon capabilities?"

The same, but different

While there are many similarities, Landon stressed the company is a new unit, separate from the history of 2nd Force Recon.

When 2nd Force folded in 2006, about five platoons and the headquarters section merged into MarSOC, while two of the former 2nd Force platoons shifted to 2nd Reconnaissance Battalion.

Brown said the requirements for joining force recon are similar to what existed in the past: mature Marines in top physical form. Moreover, he said the new company will seek to emulate force recon units of the past.

Before the establishment of MarSOC, force recon Marines were considered the Corps' elite, providing a range of deep insertion capabilities, that included scuba diving, static-line parachute and freefall parachute.

It is one of the few units in the military equipped to perform "high-glide" missions — conducting a high-altitude airdrop with special parachutes to glide toward a desired location.

Wood said the move to increase the number of active-duty Marines to 202,000 played a role in re-establishing the force recon community. The Corps' shift from t

 
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papanik1    Force recon- some info   1/21/2009 6:02:49 PM
SCCO Marine, sorry for the delay. Been very busy lately.
 
Well I believe its good for the Corps that FR is back. I got same questions you have.
 
Some info I got goes like this. Right now each FR Company (2 activated- ex-delta companies in 1st and 2nd Bats) has 2 platoons but the plan is for 4-platoon for each company with added support/staff compared to a regular Recon Company. One is commanded by an O-4 the other by an O-3.
 
A FR platoon from 1st Recon Bat was in Stan during the last months of 2008. The other one is in training with 13th MEU units (MEU train up with BLT 2/1). This is interesting because AFAIK MEUs (besides the 31st) were training and deploying (at least in theory the second part) with 1 Recon Plt and a MSOC. Could it be that now its going to be 1 Recon Plt , 1 FR Plt AND a MSOC.
 
 
I believe thats too much.
 
As I stated before, I kind of think that MSPF will come back in its original form (RECON/FR etc) with MSOCs getting more involved either with independent missions for SOCOM or in tandem with SCMAGTF deplouments, since my hunch is that eventually MARSOC will be/look much more like ARMY SF (language-culture-UW/FID training) which BTW suits the SCMAGTF deployment "style" and purpose much more than the MEU. 
 
So IMHO FR will be more DASR focused with the MARSOC having a more sophisticted UW/FID capability, which requires long and expensive training
 
É imagine that 3rd Recon Bat will also get a FR Company soon ( instead of the DRPs)  
 
Álso noticed that even in Recon Bats rank structure is getting higher with captains commanding Plt and GySgt being Plt Sgts.
 
 The way I see it the whole Corps is getting more "SOF like" (permit the expression I think you understand what I mean) and in this context  I Imagine we will see RECON/FR units getting even better
 
PS: No interservice rivalry intended but I see SEALS soon getting sort of an identity crisis since they try to be DASR with a bit of UW/FID. Now if they will have FR doing DASR and MARSOC doing UW/FID, maybe they will have to concentrate more in the SEA-underwater  portion of their expertise.   
 
Never understood why the Navy should have a SEAL capability the way it evolved the last few years(during GWOT), when you have  the Army and Marines doing almost same things. IMHO the Marines should have sole responsiility for SEAL type missions (Land DASR from the SEA) and the NAVY should have UDT-Beach Recon etc capabilities near the shore.
 
But I dont expect it to happen.
 
 
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ArtyEngineer       1/21/2009 7:51:29 PM
Not really related to the topic, but I'm at Lejeune at the minute, and all I can say is "Goddam there is a lot of construction going on"!!!!!!  Barracks, CP's etc.  Same up the road at Ft Bragg actually, its build build build!!!
 
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papanik1    MEU with FR again (?)   1/24/2009 1:57:12 PM
Latest info/rumour is that FR will make a come back with the MEUs IN PLACE of MSOCs and MARSOC wil no longer be associated with the MEUs.
FR mission supposedly will be VBSS, GOPLAT etc. Wonder if the MEU(SOC) title is coming back too.  
 
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SCCOMarine       1/26/2009 8:06:30 AM

SCCO Marine, sorry for the delay. Been very busy lately.

Well I believe its good for the Corps that FR is back. I got same questions you have.
 
Some info I got goes like this. Right now each FR Company (2 activated- ex-delta companies in 1st and 2nd Bats) has 2 platoons but the plan is for 4-platoon for each company with added support/staff compared to a regular Recon Company. One is commanded by an O-4 the other by an O-3.
 
A FR platoon from 1st Recon Bat was in Stan during the last months of 2008. The other one is in training with 13th MEU units (MEU train up with BLT 2/1). This is interesting because AFAIK MEUs (besides the 31st) were training and deploying (at least in theory the second part) with 1 Recon Plt and a MSOC. Could it be that now its going to be 1 Recon Plt , 1 FR Plt AND a MSOC.
 
I believe thats too much.

As I stated before, I kind of think that MSPF will come back in its original form (RECON/FR etc) with MSOCs getting more involved either with independent missions for SOCOM or in tandem with SCMAGTF deplouments, since my hunch is that eventually MARSOC will be/look much more like ARMY SF (language-culture-UW/FID training) which BTW suits the SCMAGTF deployment "style" and purpose much more than the MEU. 
 
So IMHO FR will be more DASR focused with the MARSOC having a more sophisticted UW/FID capability, which requires long and expensive training
 
É imagine that 3rd Recon Bat will also get a FR Company soon ( instead of the DRPs)  
 
Álso noticed that even in Recon Bats rank structure is getting higher with captains commanding Plt and GySgt being Plt Sgts.
 
The way I see it the whole Corps is getting more "SOF like" (permit the expression I think you understand what I mean) and in this context  I Imagine we will see RECON/FR units getting even better
 

PS: No interservice rivalry intended but I see SEALS soon getting sort of an identity crisis since they try to be DASR with a bit of UW/FID. Now if they will have FR doing DASR and MARSOC doing UW/FID, maybe they will have to concentrate more in the SEA-underwater  portion of their expertise.   

Never understood why the Navy should have a SEAL capability the way it evolved the last few years(during GWOT), when you have the Army and Marines doing almost same things. IMHO the Marines should have sole responsiility for SEAL type missions (Land DASR from the SEA) and the NAVY should have UDT-Beach Recon etc capabilities near the shore.
 
But I dont expect it to happen.


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"Some info I got goes like this. Right now each FR Company (2 activated- ex-delta companies in 1st and 2nd Bats) has 2 platoons but the plan is for 4-platoon for each company with added support/staff compared to a regular Recon Company. One is commanded by an O-4 the other by an O-3."
 
Yeah, once each FR Co regrows their support structure they will all shift back to the MEF & be commanded by an O-5 LtCol again.
 
 
"As I stated before, I kind of think that MSPF will come back in its original form (RECON/FR etc) with MSOCs getting more involved either with independent missions for SOCOM or in tandem with SCMAGTF deployments, since my hunch is that eventually MARSOC will be/look much more like ARMY SF (language-culture-UW/FID training) which BTW suits the SCMAGTF deployment "style" and purpose much more than the MEU."
 
If FR returns to the MEU I definitely think the MSPF will be back, but w/the rest I have to disagree w/ you.  
 
The MSOC, whether they stay on the ship or not, will never... ever support the Mission of the Marine Theater Component Commander... ever.  B/c in condensed terms, thats what your suggesting. 
 
Occassionally assist... sure, but full out support nooo. 
 
That MTCC's main mission is to provide Marine Units to support the overall Theater Security Command of the Theater Commander or T-Comm.  Since '05 the T-SOC's primary mission is co
 
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SCCOMarine    Correction   1/26/2009 2:23:05 PM
Mistake: "That MTCC's main mission is to provide Marine Units to support the overall Theater Security Command of the Theater Commander or T-Comm.  Since '05 the T-SOC's primary mission is completely different, its to basically conduct Offensive Operations against Terror Cells & Networks; Secondary: provide support to the T-COM for his TSP."
 
 
Correction: I meant to say is support the TSP, Theater Security Plan, of the T-Comm; which is his pre-drawn plan for the usage of all Operational Military Forces deployed in his Theater.  The MTCC and all the other service's Theater Component Commanders are subordinate to the T-Comm & draw up their own TSP's that involve the usage of all that particular service's (Navy, Marine, AF, Army) depl'd Units in that given Theater to support the overall TSP of the T-Comm.
 
The only TCC who is not subordinate to the T-COM in all things is the T-SOC, who commands all Spec Op Units depl'd to a given Theater, who has the primary authority to pursue his own Theater Plan in matters of Terrorism & support the T-Comm's TSP as a secondary mission in everything else.  
 
With That Said the T-SOC has his own separate Theater Plan, consisting of "dismantling Terror Cells & disrupting everything fr/ supply lines to comms", to carry out using all the SOF Units depl'd in his Theater to worry about then to think about deploying his MSOC w/the SC MAGTF which in the end would support the MTCC's TSP & not his own.
 
Joint Ops of course, but nothing more than exploiting particular Opportunities for mutual gain.
 
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papanik1       1/27/2009 4:19:14 PM
 
No argueing on your points. Actually thats what i mean. Joint Ops but with MSOTs connected with the SC MAGTF or MEU the way SEALs are with the Navy ships. As a "seabasing" platform so to speak. I think SC MAGTF platforms will be ideal for the FID/UW missions that MARSOC will most probably  focus on. And there will be lots of opportunity for "joint" ops.
 
 I am not so sure there will be no competition for best people between FR and MARSOC. MARSOC will have a fat budget and  a challenging 10 month pipeline to get in, and they do get E-3s with one deployment. I get your points about rotating between FR and MARSOC IF there is no closed loop. The way it evolves (people are talking about a special 07XX MOS and a closed loop soon to be implemented) it seems it may be more like the RANGER/Special Forces thing.
 
Some go to SF directly, some get to be Rangers first, but in any case there is no coming back from SF after they pass the Q course.
 
If someone is in Recon would he choose FR stead of MARSOC? That is a question...that needs to be answered.
 
But in my opinion FR will have the hardest training -and standards, the way it always had b/c it will be a smaller community. Especialy if they get back in their MSPF gig.
 
What do you think?  
 
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SCCOMarine       1/28/2009 4:07:47 AM

No argueing on your points. Actually thats what i mean. Joint Ops but with MSOTs connected with the SC MAGTF or MEU the way SEALs are with the Navy ships. As a "seabasing" platform so to speak. I think SC MAGTF platforms will be ideal for the FID/UW missions that MARSOC will most probably  focus on. And there will be lots of opportunity for "joint" ops.
 
I am not so sure there will be no competition for best people between FR and MARSOC. MARSOC will have a fat budget and  a challenging 10 month pipeline to get in, and they do get E-3s with one deployment. I get your points about rotating between FR and MARSOC IF there is no closed loop. The way it evolves (people are talking about a special 07XX MOS and a closed loop soon to be implemented) it seems it may be more like the RANGER/Special Forces thing.
 
Some go to SF directly, some get to be Rangers first, but in any case there is no coming back from SF after they pass the Q course.
 
If someone is in Recon would he choose FR stead of MARSOC? That is a question...that needs to be answered.
 
But in my opinion FR will have the hardest training -and standards, the way it always had b/c it will be a smaller community. Especialy if they get back in their MSPF gig.
 
What do you think?  

 
"I am not so sure there will be no competition for best people between FR and MARSOC. MARSOC will have a fat budget and  a challenging 10 month pipeline to get in, and they do get E-3s with one deployment. I get your points about rotating between FR and MARSOC IF there is no closed loop. The way it evolves (people are talking about a special 07XX MOS and a closed loop soon to be implemented) it seems it may be more like the RANGER/Special Forces thing."
 
Once the rotation is in full swing I don't think there will be much competition for personnel. 
 
You have to remember when your talking about the DASR MSOTs you have to be 0321 Reconnaissance trained BEFORE going to the DASR. 
 
I'm not sure if you think any Marine can go to MARSOC & be in the DASR, but only 0321's can go to the DASR MSOTs, if your not an 0321 your either going to the MSOAG or to 1 of the MSOC Security Plts after ITC.
 
As far as things go now MarSoc is still only a 5yr hitch.  Even though there are ppl pushing for the USMC to close the loop, mostly Jr. Offs & Enl MarSoc Marines, the Corps won't budge it was 1 of their biggest sticking points B4 joining SoCom.  
 
Unlike SOF fr/other services who serve absolutely no role or purpose in their Mother Services, S-O is well intergrated in MAGTF Ops.  Those Marines will rotate back into the Corps, re-train in intergrated MAGTF Ops & do the same job in the Corps, do 1 tour & go back to MarSoc.
 
It will be 5yrs in MarSoc, 3-5yrs in the Corps, 3-5 back in, 3-5yrs out.

 
"The way it evolves (people are talking about a special 07XX MOS and a closed loop soon to be implemented) it seems it may be more like the RANGER/Special Forces thing."
 
The MOS thing if it happens I think will be a good thing & IMO it is actually more of a sign that they're preparing for MarSoc Marines to rotate back into Mother. Those Marines are supposed to be tracked throughout their careers in & out of MarSoc.
 
But it will be more of a Career Path/Skill/Training Indicator than a Closed Loop. 
 
It will be no different than the MOS/Skill Indicators that distinguished FR Marines fr/ the regular 0321's.  FR Marines had the MOS 8654 meaning Jump & Combat Dive certified which was a requirement for FR.  The same w/all CQB Marines fr/ FAST Co & HRP trained Marines, Sh*t even MCMAP & SOI Instructors have separate MOS's that tracks who &where these guys are.
 
As far as the 07XX's it will most likely simply be the 07 will signify MarSoc trained & the XX will be what you did DASR, MSOAG, comm, security, JTAC, EOD, Intel, etc.
 
 
"Joint Ops but with MSOTs connected with the SC MAGTF or MEU the way SEALs are with the Navy ships. As a "seabasing" platform so to speak. I think SC MAGTF platforms will be ideal for the FID/UW missions
 
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papanik1    SCCOMARINE   2/12/2009 3:58:48 PM
I think you are totaly right.
 
Check out shadowspear.com/vb, in relevant forum, an operator there makes some very interesting statements about FR/MARSOC etc.
 
Besides that, I think that very soon the distinction between MSOAG and MSOB marines will go away. Same pipeline, so some MSOTs (probably those coming from Recon/FR) will be "dual cool" (scuba/halo qualified) and will be combined with regular MSOTs depending on mission. Same pipeline as i said but some teams with special insertion capabilities and probably a little bit more SR/DA oriented because of previous experience.
 
But UW/FID will be the main item for MARSOC. For the Long War.
 
And FR will be- like in the older days- much more RECON than DA oriented.
 
Same thing happening to the Army. They are establishing a new type of Long Range Recon/Surveil Companies with Ranger/ABN/HALOo capabilities (even sniper training in some elements) etc.
 
But if you see the broader view IMHO it is getting a bit overcomplicated.
 
Its like SOCOM is becoming a "service" of its own and the two "ground" services are developing new SOF-type units to cover needs that originally were covered by SOF!!!
 
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