S.U.S.T.A.I.N....Marines In Spaaace!

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Subject: S.U.S.T.A.I.N....Marines In Spaaace!
SCCOMarine 3/14/2008 4:56:47 PM

The Marine Corps has quietly, over the past 6 or 7yrs, been shaping the Forced Entry and Crisis Response capability of the next millenium w/ NASA and Aero-Space Industries. It's called SUSTAIN-Small Unit Space Transport and Insertion. By seizing on the emerging SCRAM-Jet technologies they are in early development w/ the Industry towards a series SCRAM-Jets capable of Deploying 13-20 man Squads of Marines. SCRAM-Jets are Hyper-Sonic Air/Space Craft that break the earth's atmosphere then skim across it at speeds of Mach 4 thru Mach 10. They will be able to deploy a company-sized Expeditionary Unit of DO Capable Marines anywhere in the world in 2HRs or less. The list of missions range fr/ Crisis Response and In-Extremis Hostage Rescue to QRF for SOF, capable of re-inforcing Special Operations Missions world wide at a moments notice.

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JFKY 3/19/2008 7:41:19 PM

OK, no costs and that's OK, to an extent. However, don't fool yourself, this will be as expensive as the Space Transportation System. You don't even have an engine system yet. For all this talk about Scramjets, we don't have any that work, reliably, much less efficiently. So it's all about developing the entire hypersonic airplane. As tot he super-rich and LEO transportation that was what the SST was going to do, in atmosphere. The Concorde never made money....the super-rich can't support such aircraft, only freight and mass transport can. This is not a cheap idea at all.

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SCCOMarine 3/20/2008 12:18:32 AM

Nobody said its not going to be expensive, but shuttle expensive no. Why? b/c its not required to operate, in space just skim the edge.

Is this planned to be the cornerstone of military transport for the future, No. Its a specific capability designed for specific role.

As far as not having any Scram-Jets that work, "No Shit, thats why its a Concept." There wasn't a Super Sonic Stealth Jet or even an engine that could sustain Super Sonic Cruise b4 F-22, 20yrs ago those technologies were just concepts; for that matter even 5yrs after the F-117 was taking top secret flights there were still ppl who didn't believe it even existed.

The thing is, the technologies behind the Scram-Jet are more solid and feasible than any of those projects were 15 to 20yrs prior to their first prototype flights.

But its really all irrelevant b/c I could give a fuck if you get it or not. Its just a concept being shaped by the Marine Corps for future military application. Your condescending tone is wasted on this thread.

I just posted it for those interested in it to have a dialogue on it. The technology is solid and real. If you want to talk about that, then talk.

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Yimmy 3/20/2008 12:23:35 AM

There wasn't a Super Sonic Stealth Jet or even an engine that could sustain Super Sonic Cruise b4 F-22,

The Rolls Royce Avon 200R was pushing the English Electric Lightning to super-cruise in 1959.

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SCCOMarine 3/20/2008 1:40:36 AM

So I'll repeat them, with the proper numbers,

1) Exactly what are 80-150 guys going to do, once they're on the ground?

2) And how will they do it? (Fire support and logistics)

3) The Space-based UH-1's are going to land at Mogadishu International; and then the 80-150 Marines are going to fight their way into the city?

Thats exactly what they're going to do.

Case in point:Liberia

2003 Civil War breaks in Liberia. All US citizens begin making their way thru the country to the Embassy in groups. Rebels set-up checkpoints to intercept them as easy targets. Then began shelling the Embassy trying to force those in to come out.

A 41 member FAST Team deployed fr/ Rota, Spain, landed just outside the Monrovia linked up w/ ground transport provide by Embassy Security & immediately began clearing the area around the Embassy building by building, block by block then began escorting US citz into the Emb compound until a few days later when it was re-inforced by a Company fr/the MEU(SOC).

Case in point: Haiti(a much more interesting story)

2004 2 Plts of less than 100 Marines fr/ 2nd FAST Co deploy fr/ Norfolk, VA via either C-130 or C-5 Galaxy landing directly in Port-au-Prince Airport seizing it.

Immdediately after seizing the airport they began racing thru the city seizing various key objectives in Humvees fr/the plane. It all culminated w/ the Seizure of the Presidential Compound and the taking of Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide into US Custody by the FAST Marines.

In both instances the Marines hit so hard, fast, and unexpectedly they completed both missions w/out a shot fired.

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SCCOMarine 3/20/2008 2:18:10 AM

There wasn't a Super Sonic Stealth Jet or even an engine that could sustain Super Sonic Cruise b4 F-22,

The Rolls Royce Avon 200R was pushing the English Electric Lightning to super-cruise in 1959.

That is actually a heavily debated issue of the EEL's cruise of just breaking Mach 1.04 in cruise mode and true Super Sonic Cruise of Mach 1.5 and higher performed by the F-22.

Not to mention the EEL role as a Point Defense Intercerptor not capable of long distance engagement. So its 'Super-Cruise' could only be engaged for short distances. Which was far short of the F-22's design goals.

Which was long distance 'Super Sonic Cruise.'

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JFKY 3/20/2008 11:03:02 AM

And if the rebels don't care that they're facing a COMPANY-sized element of troops? Further, the examples you give, were handled WITHOUT A BILLION-DOLLAR EXPENSIVE HYPER-SONIC SCARMJET, so why do we need one?

I also note that you kind of neglect to mention that the Liberian episode required conventional extraction and the Haitian episode had a conventional phase, too. So, we're going to deploy, and please not you're still hazy on the exact details (parachute/air-landing?) of this deployment and then have to recover the lander, the troops and the evacuees...and I ask, exactly why this idea is preferable to the current situation, which also involves the USMC but doesn't involve developing a new engine, one doesn't exist, plus a new hull-form based not on shuttle tiles but something new entirely?

Bottom-line: so far the proposal involves helping NASA and the USAF develop a new toy, that will still require Ch-53's/V-22's/AH 1/AH-64's, C-130's, or C-17's, ARG's and NGFS plus naval/Marine CAS. And I just keep saying, it's an answer in search of a question.

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Yimmy 3/20/2008 12:29:54 PM

That is actually a heavily debated issue of the EEL's cruise of just breaking Mach 1.04 in cruise mode and true Super Sonic Cruise of Mach 1.5 and higher performed by the F-22.

Blah... blah... blah....

Over mach one without afterburner is "super-cruise", however you try and sex it up to make it look like an American creation.

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Yimmy 3/20/2008 12:33:42 PM

In both instances the Marines hit so hard, fast, and unexpectedly they completed both missions w/out a shot fired.

Well that's a good thing - as had the bad guys known what they were doing, a lone company of infantry on their turf would be a soft target.

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JFKY 3/20/2008 1:21:22 PM

Not US Marines, dude....they are fairly invincible...I thought you knew that by now.

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Horsesoldier 3/20/2008 1:35:43 PM

I doubt it. Especially w/ the consetions made btwn the USMC and SOCOM over the last 4yrs establishing who's mission is what, who's the supported and the supporting parties on particular missions, and where to draw the line btwn the 2 Orgs and how they can best work together.

Crisis Response and Forced Entry on any scale has always been the purview of General Purpose Forces and is in fact written into the National Security Act.

There is also no Unit better suited for Task Organized Expeditionary Operations which is why the MEU(SOC) not SOCOM has been the force of choice for CR missions.

You could see SOCOM deploy w/ the units in a joint capacity but the CR/FE mission has and will always be a GFP mission.

Nope. Aviation delivery, even fancy sub-orbital delivery, will get handed to the Rangers or to conventional US Army airborne. The Corps missed the boat on aviation back in 1943 or so, and I don't see the ones who got on it making room for them just because the USMC is looking for another way to get funding.

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