Plus in 5 or so yrs when Mar Inf will be capable of fully operating in that capacity of scouting and running some of the low level surveillance & observation for themselves, that'll be at the Max of their capability.

 

Where as for the RBn's that was at a pretty low to mediocre level of what they're capable of doing, but that was the main mission assigned.  So no, I would never think that Mar Inf could operate at RBn's level b/c of that.

 

Give them (RBn aka the rest of the Recon Community) the same training pipeline & funding and they'll perform to the same level.  Many of the Sgt's and SNCOs in the RBn were former FR anyway.  Like I said I had 3 FR Sgts in SCCO.

 

And yeah, I think they're taking some steps to 'fixing recon'.  Establishing the 0321 Billet as a Career was a good start.  Talk about losing Senior Ldrship, so many Recon Marines left for other services & PMC b/c after E6/SSgt they knew their career as a Reconnaissanceman was over.

 

Dropping the Screening PFT to 200 is temporary, just to immediately flood the training pipeline b/c the number of school seats per yr has almost doubled.

 

Now its time to do for them(total Recon Community), exactly what they did for the Infantry.  Develop a series of training programs to get the the max out of what they're capable of. 

 

Maybe develop a training pipeline Beyond Force Recon.....why not?

 

But once I really sat down and thought about it and looked at it thru my Policy Goggles, which I think you should always do when looking at these things no matter the unit/service/country.  Policy wise, if one of these units were going to get the ax due to merging out of redundancy, I think it should be the BNs axed.

 

And I'm not saying this b/c its the popular answer but b/c this type capability doesn't belong at the Division level.  Deep, or Strategic Reconnaissance belongs at the MEF level.  The MEF is a Strategically focused Command.  Everytime that capability is placed under the Div it atrophies and it becomes 'tool' of the Ground Commander, or inadvertently tactically focused.

 

This is why everytime the DR capability is dropped to Deep Recon Co, Divisional Reconnaissance BN; it is quickly reconstitued as Marine Expeditionary Force Reconnaissance Co, aka Force Recon under the MEF.

 

Like I said the only reason the whole Recon Community isn't & wasn't trained to the MEF level is monitary.  There isn't/wasn't enough money right to maintain 350 operators per MEF at that level.

 

Maybe they've seen the error in their ways...Flashback to Finger in the Eye, here's to hoping it still stings.

 

 

 

Also, on Intel Offs.

Some Intel Officers leading FR Plts isn't actually a bad idea.  For one they have to prove themselves Sh*t Hot 1st.  But also, at that level the Plt Commander is more of a Strategic Missions Manager than a Tactical Decision Maker anyway.  Plus its a good blend of the capabilities, he can filter & interpret most of the good intel immediately and liason understanding btwn what the FR Tm is seeing on the ground and what the Fusion Intel Cell wants to know.  Not to mention having the highest level of Top Secret Security Clearance available.

 

The Corps also does it in the SS and STA Plts where its more common the Plt Com is an Intel Off than not, f/there they can TRY OUT for FR.

 

Also When MSOC-F's Company Commander was relieved it was XO an Intel Officer/Former FR Plt Comm who took over Command of the Company.

Well, by definition SS platoons are supposed to get 0203 MOS intel officers and not any intel MOS, b/c the 0203 goes through Infantry ofiicer training while the other intel MOSs dont. A unit leader with no real tactical training after TBS can get a unit in ttrouble and nowadays ( 2003 onwards) a Recon/Fr unit gets to operate not just in 4-6 man teams but in larger packages.

 

Also I noticed that this practice (getting inexperienced officers in recon) creates a lack of respect from NCOs about their superiors tactical/SOF ability, even if they get the diver/paratrooper badges along the way. I am also under the impression that some Officers dont even go through BRC (RSE) although they are supposed to lead recon troops.

 

Completely agree with your example about DRP getting missued b/c of being part of a bat. Maybe this is the reason the Corps is thinking about reforming active FR companies (plus they are not sure that they will be able to have MSOCs on board MEUs since SOCOM is calling the shots and there is lot of talk about MARSOC getting a lot iof advisor UW?FID missions that better fit an SC MAGTF.

 

If you take a look at MARSOC website recruiting page, you will see it refers to this type of operations (phase zero) almost exclusively now.

 

I think in the near future a very capable  marine will either 1) get to choose between Recon/FR or MARSOC, or 2) will go first to FR and after a 5 year tour go to MARSOC, then back to recon or FR as senior NCO etc.  

 

It works this way a lot in the army, between regular Inf/ Airborne- then Ranger- and after Special Forces, or straight to SF.

 

Any hints?

 

BTW The Fox CO (and everybody else) was found not guilty for the incident but his career is i imagine in a very bad state and there is also some admin loose ends for him to face. Too bad. The way this thing turned out it looks like they f***ed up some officers proff and personal life for mistakes made in higher levels.

 

PS: Áccording to the 2007 MOS Manual, only prior MOS 0203 Captains (that is prior if they get the 0202 MATF intel MOS at the 0-3 level, as they are supposed to) get to be XOs for MSOCs . I imagine the intel XO of Fox, being prior FR as you say, was an 0203.

 

Never heard of other Intel MOSs besides the ones with 0203 prior MOS getting command of any FR outfit, platoon or Company.

 

PS2: Bad thing about this board is although i checked the notify by e-mail button, i never get a notification, so I have to look from time to time for response. Sorry for any delays.

 

Very nice exchning views/info with you.

My bad I totally misunderstood what you were asking me.  I thought that when you were asking me you didn't know about 0203's serving when you were taking about Intel Offs being assigned, & were asking if the 0203 that serve as PC's are a good Idea serving.

 

When analyzing the next step etc. ppl can't be so narrowly focused on individual aspects that they miss the peripheral scene that puts each aspect in its proper perspective. (don't watch the ball, watch the hands that moves it.)

 

I think one thing that must be kept in mind is that due to the nature of USMC assigned missions, regardless of MARSOC, it will retain its SR/DA capability.  USMC has always & will continue in the future to be assigned SR/DA & other 'special missions'(not special operations) outside of/ parallel to/ & in tandem with USSOCOM.

 

The MSOC isn't & wasn't designed to be the answer to the USMC's need for SR/DA.  It was designed to be an SR/DA etc. asset for USSOCOM for SOCOM's missions, that was forward deployed aboard on the MEU(SOC), the Corps has no Operational Control over them.  The USMC temporarily sacrificed its 'special missions' capability to fill an immediate need for SOCOM, which technically left them naked.

 

W/that said the USMC will not go long w/out this capability, & is presently in the process of rebuilding it.  So it doesn't matter whether the MSOCs will stay on ship or not, the USMC is no going to permanently go w/out having its own SR/DA capability.

 

As far as UW/FID emphasis increasing in the MSOCs, I think thats a reflection of the desires on it of the Command it was designed for.  Like I said, the USMC would be rebuilding the SR/DA capability & deploying it regardless.

I think MARSOC is using FID as a vehicle for developing their own unique brand of UW

I disagree on one point with your view. On a MEU there is place just for one "SOC" element. It can be either a MSOC or an old MSPF element. Dont forget a MSOC even now (after cutting the security platoon ppl) is more than 70 people (with enabler detachment). Together with the security platoon they stretched the limit in capacity as I was informed. Also no point in duplicating capabilities that are "critical" corps wide for a whole 6-7 month deployment.

To address this I kind of have to go back to something I said b4 thats very important to how you see how the Corps or any unit goes forward.

 

Its great knowing this unit is capable of this so they should go here & that unit capable of that so they do that.  All that knowledge is great but useless if you don't 1st look at it thru the lense of Policy-then roles & mission.

 

Saying, "OK they can do this or that but in the real world of policy & procedure what missions are they really assigned and why?   What missions are they capable of but are usually not assigned & why?"

 

Here's why I say that.  Your still looking at MarSoc as a Marine Corps asset, its not.  The MSOC trains w/the MEU, it deploys w/the MEU, its missions are interoperable w/the MEU.  But it is not a MEU or MC asset, in the same way the as the Navy SEAL Strike Plt that used to be assigned to the ARG/MEU didn't belong to them.

 

The Amphib Sqdrn Commander & MEU Commander could have tactical command of them (SEALs) for missions, but only if granted permission fr/ the Theater Special Operations Commander(T-SOC)--Admiral or General SOF GUY, to whom they belonged.

 

The MSOC is not deployed on the MEU for the sake of MEU, they don't even have the same Operational chain of command.  In fact, in the future when the #'s come down in Iraq & A'stan and the MSOC gets back on the boat, I'd bet the MEU Commander wouldn't be privvy to 90% of what the MSOC's would be doing while deployed.

 

Why?  B/c they don't belong to the MEU, they belong to the T-SOC.  They're not deployed on the ARG/MEU to perform SOF missions for the MEU.  They are on the MEU to be a foward deployed Special Operations Force to support the Overall Strategic Policy of the Theater Special Operations Commander.

 

So w/all that said don't look at the MEU & the MSOC deploying together as them having the same mission.  One may support the other on various missions.  But fr/ the Top down they deploy w/2 completely different agendas.

 

Thats why when you write & you mention how they're shifting to FID/UW as if they're shifting away fr/ the needs of the MEU.  They were never there to support the MEU or replace its SR/DA capability, but to support the agenda SOCOM.  They use the ships of the MEU, 1st and foremost, as a Foward Deployed Launch Pad for SO missions as directed by the T-SOC & him only.

 

 

Numbers wouldn't be a problem b/c all the members of the MSPF are still on the ship.  The only difference is the role of MEF Level Strategic Reconnaissance Unit, formerly played by Force Recon, is now being played by B-list star, Division Reconnaissance Deep Recon Plt.  But all the units that made the MSPF are still on ship.

 OK, I apologize but the answer will be somewhat  long? In TWO parts

 Let me re-phrase a little, because I think we agree on more things than you think, maybe I didn?t explain my thoughts correctly.

 I am fully aware of the chain of command, OPCON TACON etc of SOCOM units in general and MARSOC in particular. I also know that a part of USMC leadership is not very happy with the MEU being MEU (SOC) only when the MSOC is aboard, since most of the time, it isn?t nowadays.

 Besides that, you got a MEU(SOC) that is always on such status ( 31^st) while the others aren?t.

 What I suggested is not that MSOCs deploying with SC MAGTFs will be under the SC MAGTF Command. I suggested that they ?fit? better together. And I will explain.

 The MEU does not deploy on a disaggregated concept. It can split (split MEU concept LHD one part, LPD and  LSD or just the LPD, another) but it is not built to spread around or to have ?persistent presence?,  but rather an episodic one (according to policy and plans), in the path it follows in its area of operations.

 Since MSOCs by SOCOM policy are turning more on FID?UW mission they do have to have more ?boots on the ground time? (30-60 days for a normal FID Mission)  and the ability to spread around in the area. That just can?t be done efficiently if running along with a MEU.

 It can be done efficiently if working together with a SC MAGTF that is disaggregated in the whole area of operations, notwithstanding different chains of command. B/c they will be operating in the same places and in compatible mission duration.

An SC MAGTF will anyway have to co-operate (in such a concept as is currently envisioned) not just with the Navy or SOCOM, but with various OGAs and maybe even the Army.

It is in the nature of the beast as ?phase zero operations? go, in friendly or neutral countries that need assistance.  And don?t forget that the SC MAGTF and MSOC, will both be under COCOM authority anyway, the way things are developing now (SOCOM doesn?t want ?supported Command status in most cases and almost never applied it except with JSOC special missions.    

So, ?combining?  (in a vague way stated, not in a rigid task-force way per se) an SC MAGTF with a MSOC, looks much more reasonable than combining an SC MAGTF with an SF element or SEALs, since MSOC people are much more familiar with Marine SOPs, mentality etc.