Is there really a need for Pararescue?

Military History \| How To Make War \| Wars Around the World	Rules of Use	How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Commandos and Special Operations Discussion Board
Return to Topic Page

Subject: Is there really a need for Pararescue?
dirtykraut 7/11/2007 2:00:12 PM

Now before you all crucify me, I'm just going to say that I respect USAF pararescue just as much, if not more so than other SOF organizations. But it seems to me that there really is no need to have 350 CSAR specialists in the event they must rescue a pilot. Also, aren't other units tasked with CSAR? Could they not do the job at least adequately enough that in the event a plane went down behind enemy lines, any SOF or even conventional unit could perform such an operation? It just doesn't seem like these guys get to do their jobs very often, and in peacetime, there is absolutely nothing for them to do. What do you guys think?

Quote Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title Newest to Oldest

Pages: PREV 1 2 3 NEXT

dirtykraut 7/16/2007 10:40:26 PM

It's not that we shouldn't invest in SAR. It's just the question of wether or not we need a designated unit for it or not. Now it seems from these replies that the PJ's do a lot more than I gave them credit for.

Quote Reply

nottheguilty1 Re: Balkans 6/13/2009 6:05:40 PM

Re Balkans: downed F-16 driver Scott O'Grady was rescued by a Marine unit practiced in TRAP and operated off Kearsarge. O'Grady was the only one who used a parachute, his rescuers arrived by helicopter.

v^2

>USAF Rescue types tend to point out that the Marines made a huge deal out of getting O'Grady, full platoon locked and >loaded, big foot print, etc. Recovery of the F117 pilot involved two PJs being on the ground for 40 seconds.

To answer this topic in particular, and clear up a few inconsistencies...there was a single PJ on the ground with Captain O'Grady. A second PJ was on standby. The rescue was a bit longer than 40 seconds. It takes longer than 40 seconds to perform a simple extraction.

Another correction is that Capt. O'Grady was an F16 pilot...not F117. The reason there is a misconception as to who performed the rescue lies largely in the fact that there was a movie made about the incident where several fictitious facts were added to the storyline. Capt. O'Grady eventually sued the company that produced the movie. The PJ who did touch ground was decorated for his actions.

As far as other units that can do CSAR's.... no other unit is as qualified with SAR as USAF Pararescue. There are Spec Ops that perform extractions... but because either a quick decision is made or because it is done on the spot. There is a good reason why PJ's constantly supplement SEAL and Ranger Teams...and its not because we like getting shot at. Trust me there is plenty for a PJ to do both during peacetime or in conflict. Old Grunt is actually right...PJ's are considered the go-to guys's for high threat situations.

Quote Reply

yeter AFpara 9/1/2009 4:02:30 PM

But it seems to me that there really is no need to have 350 CSAR specialists in the event they must rescue a pilot.

Pararescuemen are also organic to USAF Special Tactics units, supporting operations by Air Force CCTs and other SOF units. The Rescue units that are outside AFSOC again (IIRC) also provide air ambulance MEDEVAC services in some cases to SOF or conventional units (they were used as such during Operation Anaconda, for instance) besides their doctrinal personnel recovery mission for air crews..

Also, aren't other units tasked with CSAR? Could they not do the job at least adequately enough that in the event a plane went down behind enemy lines, any SOF or even conventional unit could perform such an operation?

I believe the USAF take the view that SEALs, SF, Ranger platoons, whoever can do CSAR. The problem is whether or not you get those assets tasked to do CSAR when push comes to shove and there are oil platforms needing seizing, strategic recon targets, direct action targets, etc etc etc. Having a dedicated organic asset means you have an dedicated asset no matter how many local sources say Osama bin Laden is hiding in their goat pen, etc.

Also, keep in mind that the pararescuemen (1T2 AFSC) are only part of the Rescue Squadrons, which also include aircraft and their crews as well, some of which are pretty uniquely kitted out specifically for SAR and CSAR work (HC-130s for instance). You could replicate their function with AFSOC birds and 160th . . . but again, saying you'll flex some MH-47s or MH-53s or whatever to support CSAR during the planning stages and actually doing it during the operational stages are often two very different things.

It just doesn't seem like these guys get to do their jobs very often

Classic aircrew-recovery CSAR? Not so much, but that's because we're currently fighting guys who don't do air defense very well at all. In other conflict scenarios, things might be quite a bit different. But, regardless, they've been doing a bunch of high-threat environment medevacs and such, though, even if we're not losing bunches of aircraft.

and in peacetime, there is absolutely nothing for them to do.

They actually had people forward deployed on a go-to-war footing to do CSAR in Saudi, Turkey, Italy and the other places UN or NATO no-fly zones were launching out of from 1991 on. They also do regular SAR support for a bunch of USAF training events, some disaster relief stuff, and their reserve component guys supplement USCG SAR capabilities in Alaska, California, New York, and Florida.

Just to go on a mission with SEALs,they have to do more training! Combat scuba etc.

Quote Reply

yeter AFpara 9/1/2009 4:04:37 PM

Like Horsesoldier said, if we were involved in a war with a country who had a nice air-defense system and a decent airforce, their op temp would probably increase dramatically. This isn't their war quite honestly (nor technically is it the SEALs war), but they are making themselves very useful doing what Horse mentioned. They will never be downsized in my opinion, even if its the best thing to do (I don't feel it is, but I see your points). They have a purpose and if the day ever comes when we need them, they will be good to go.

War,belongs to the warriors!Not the sidewinders and gawkers....How does war stop then?Destroy the cache!

Quote Reply

YOUGOTYOURASSKICKED 1/19/2010 7:58:00 PM

Well, I would expect the PR's to rescue operators in hard to reach places. As for your point on other SOF units fulfilling the CSAR role, as many do, they could be busy doing other things, or merely just need the specialized skills for the uncommon occurrence of a very dangerous rescue requiring HV targets or hostile areas that would need the assistance of the CIA's paramilitary capabilities. But that's a whole new playing field right there.

Quote Reply

SCCOMarine MEU(SOC)-TRAP & CSAR 1/20/2010 3:39:55 PM

This is a DEAD thread but I'm going to weigh in only to clarify the Misinformation on what the Marines "DID" & what they "CAN" provide.

1) CSAR is the PJ's bread & butter, its what they do & are probably the Best at it for many reasons, fr/ every PJ's level of Med training to the Man-hours they spend on the various scenarios of a CSAR Mission

2) Most CSAR are ideally performed during the hrs of darkness trying to remain as Discreet as possible, AVOIDING contact.

3) Due to various factors those ideal conditions cannot always be met.

4) TRAP is CSAR, but CSAR is not TRAP. TRAP is a very Muscular form of CSAR & is performed when the enemy knows your coming & you don't have the luxury of Discretion; whatever the Objective is it has to be pulled out immediately. In other words, TRAP expects to meet & repel enemy contact in the successful conduct of an extraction.

That was the case in the Scott O'Grady rescue. There was a PJ team on standby, but they could not risk a daytime extraction. Usual protocol is find concealment & wait until night fall. He didn't have that luxury, there was a Company sized force sweeping his area & had more than likely picked up his general transmission location.

The likelihood of enemy contact was extremely high. However he was deemed in need of immediate extraction b/c the likelihood of capture or death was also extremely high.

Therefore the MEU(SOC) was given the authority to perform TRAP. Luckily due to speed of execution the enemy hadn't yet closed in on his position & it was performed w/out enemy contact.

So for all the IDIOTs screaming they had to send 40 Marines to do what only a small tm of PJ's could do, if you don't "Understand" whats being talked about.. ask Q?s or shut your mouth & stay in a child's place. Your Misinformation is not helpful.

Quote Reply

sgt. rock 2/11/2011 6:18:16 PM

What you miss is that Pararescue is now the force tasked with CSAR for virtually all special operations groups. For example, Jason Cunningham was awarded the Air Force Cross while on a mission with Navy Seals in Afghanistan, and Tim Wilkerson was awarded the Air Force Cross in Somalia while on a mission with Army Rangers ("Blackhawk Down"). Pararescue provides currently provide CSAR for all Special Ops being conducted in Afghanisgtan and Iraq. In fact, they are the only special operations group in which every member are cross trained in every field of operation. They have also added structral collapse to their repitoire in within the past decade, and were involved in rescue operations when the building the UN was using in Iraq was car-bombed. And they do more than just rescue. The first U.S. boot on the ground for the invasion of Panama was an PJ who was inserted to pave the way for the invasion, as they can do everything a combat controller can do, but have a much higher level of combat special operations training.

Quote Reply

conecrusher 8/17/2011 9:25:11 PM

The mission of a Pararescueman is to recover downed and injured aircrew members in austere and non-permissive environments. Pararescueman provide emergency medical treatment necessary to stabilize and evacuate injured personnel while acting in an enemy evading recovery role. Pararescueman also act as aircrew gunners and scanners on fixed and rotary wing aircraft while performing flight following duties. In addition Pararescueman provide contingency landing sites coverage for NASA space shuttle missions.

This is our mission statement, however PJ's do much much more. Just look at civil SAR. 9/11 ring a bell? Hear of a little storm called Hurricane Katrina? The earthquakes in Japan? What about the many jump missions in open waters too far off the coast for the coast guard to handle or search mission in conjunction with the CG for lost vessels? I can't even imagine how many civilian lives would be lost if it were not for the PJ's constantly poised on alert in Alaska. We have supported NASA since the 60's. PJ's pioneered the moving target techniques necessary to secure the Capsule water landings back in the day as well as the RAMZ package for possible shuttle bail outs over the open ocean. I can only imagine we will continue to support NASA with whatever new space vehicle they developed, as long as it returns to Earth.

PJ's have flown thousands of CSAR, Medevac and Casevac sorties in Afghanistan. We have treated poisoned babies, eviscerated children playing with grenades, elderly caught in the crossfire of war, Afghani Generals, US Army SOF, Navy SOF, Marines, and countless Allied forces. We have pulled our best friends out of burning aircraft piece by piece. We are some of the most decorated men in the Armed Services. We go in to landing zones when all others refuse... and gladly!

Why do we need PJ's you ask? Because Pararescuemen are RESCUE SPECIALISTS!!! We are the only DoD asset that are trained and equipped to execute rescue in ANY environment. We arrive to our target under a canopy, in aircraft, armored vehicles, ATV's, motorcycles, Zodiac boats, Jetski's, underwater, and on foot. If you look at our selection course you will understand why a PJ will never quit. We specialize in technical rescue including confined space, structural collapse, high and low angle rope rescue, avalanche rescue, mountain and glacial travel, and extrication from...you name it! Mass casualty scenarios are our bread and butter, no ones comes close. We are nationally registered EMT-Paramedics and can perform minor surgeries including amputations. What makes us special is how and to what lengths we will go to reach our target. Others cannot compare.

Yes, conventional forces can do CSAR, but who is the better choice when the target is at 14000 feet in the Hindu Kush? Pride always seems to get in the way when it comes to rescue...everyone wants to be the hero right? I could care less to be perfectly honest. If the army can get someone help faster, SEND THEM! But I know PJ's are the best choice 9 times out of 10.

Quote Reply

youy 9/5/2011 4:41:09 AM

completely there is a need because they are trained specifically and it is only 350 men. A conventional asset would not be able to do it discreetly. A unit like delta that probably do it because of their closely related in that they work alone or in small groups. But delta is a very very very expensive and not available asset. Reason for being expensive is that the ammo and gun and everything would need to be recovered because of the amount of classified tech on them. So obviously we do need pararescue.

Quote Reply

MadMan Real answer 2/15/2012 6:55:55 PM

So as for this little issue. Well a Pararescueman or PJ is a technical rescue specialist. First off you would have to be dumber then a rock to not realize this means more civilian missions in peacetime then you could possibly fathom. Look up the Icelandic Freedom Medal, or Icelands "Medal of Honor" only ever given to one man, a Pararescueman. Not to mention the massive amount of support to humanitarian events like Haiti, Katrina or Japan. No other rescue force is as qualified for civilian or combat rescue. Almost daily there is a civilian rescue mission conducted by 1 of the units worldwide.

Second, have you heard of an event from the 70's called Vietnam. Well they did a couple rescues there, a couple thousand. Even earned a Medal of Honor.

Third, yes we are supposed to to be rescuing aircrew but the majority of the time we are pulling out ground forces from Marines, Army, Navy, Britain, Estonia, you name it. Technical rescue means that we pull anyone out of anywhere, anytime.

Fourth, assets like army medevac are good and all if you want less skilled medics who cant provide fire support or have almost no tactical knowledge. But if you you want someone whos gonna get the job done in a combat enviroment then you might wanna look for a PJ.

The problem with PJ's is there is such little knowledge on them because they are the misfits of the air force but before you "knowledgeable experts" post comments to this question on the internet it might be nice to have the slightest knowledge of what you are talking about.

Quote Reply

PREV 1 2 3 NEXT