Yeah, they did use the too high a dosage of gas, which does show a lack of professionalism...I didn't think about that.  Smitty, you are the SWAT expert, can you tell me more about the type of gas used, the regular dosage vs. what the Russians used, etc?

The "gas" they used was actually an aerosol agent, Kolokol-1, which is itself a derivative of Fentanyl, a powerful incapacitating agent.  It was a "top secret" Russian Cold War weapon.  The use of the agent was responsible for killing forty two of the Chechen terrorists, and all but one of the one hundred and twenty hostages that died in the theater.  One factor that probably contributed to many of the deaths was that the Russian officials initially refused to identify the agent used, which meant that some of the affected victims did not receive adequate treatment.   Vladimir Putin initially defended the use of the agent, claiming that it saved the lives of over seven hundred other hostages, but it's hard to justify killing over one eighth of the hostages in order to save the others.  Many of the dead were children. 

I appreciate the compliment, GOP, but I'm hardly an expert.  I'm just a guy that got lucky enough to do something that he loves and tries to stay informed. 

Not at all.  In fact it had never been done before.  That's why it was a risky gamble that failed.  I'm sure it was originally intended to be used as an offensive weapon in situations in which it was an acceptable risk if some people died with its use.  I read the Russians considered using it during the failed coup against Boris Yeltsin.  According to other reports the Russians conducted tests with Fentanyl in (presumably) closed off sections of the Moscow subway.  Using knock out gas against terrorists or enemy special ops makes sense as a military weapon, but when there is a significant risk of collateral damage using such a tool is extremely risky to the extreme.  I think what happened is that the Russkies feared that if they used too little of the agent they ran the risk of one of the terrorsts figuring out what was happening and detonating their explosives, so instead they used too much.  The agent almost instantly knocked out the terrorists, but killed over a hundred men, women, and children in the process.    The use of  incapacitating agents in hostage situations makes a lot of sense, but the science hasn't made that concept tactically feasible or advisable.   

Wow, they sound like amateurs the way they handled the aerosol. Do you know what their other options were, outside of negotiations and using the aerosol? I am geussing that a HR attempt would be extremely, extremely risky for both hostages and Spetz operators. I am wondering if Spetznaz Alpha handled the action, or if it was local police Spetz...I would think that Alpha would have been much better trained and prepared than that.

As for worst SF i'd say vatican city, i mean what are they going to do bop you with a halberd?

actually, they've recently permitted some of them "to carry".

by far the biggest knock on the russians over the theatre has to be not having the antidote ready in large enough quantities and being ready to treat people coming out promptly.  the use of the gas was probably the best available alternative for them given they had many tangoes mixed in with the hostages the way they were.  a conventional assault would have been extremely tough if it was possible at all.

 

 

 

I was under the impression that they have always been a two sided organisation, with the ceremonial stuff going on, and also with a CT/SWAT like team always ready to go.

That is exactly how it is organized. The CT team is very good from what I have heard...

does anyone honestly expect for the Vatican to not have any guns or operators? We are involved in the GWOT with Christianity being a target, and the Pope is the most known Christian in the world...they have to be ready for anything.