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Subject: worst special forces
bob the brit    1/8/2007 11:09:31 PM
here we go, don't see this one too often, what do you think is the worst special forces currently operating (wonder if we'll see any reverse pecker competitions i.e. "my country's SF are worse than yours") but you can be serious if you want... oh and don't be a nob end and just use this to slag off other people (oh what have i begun?) (e, there's no more smileys, and i wanted to use that one with the puzzled... distraught look)
 
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bob the brit       1/9/2007 12:32:10 AM
i still think egypt's task force 777 takes the biscuit with the hijacked 737 assualt attempt... (then again eagleclaw didn't go exactly as planned... bit misfortunate that)
 
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bob the brit       1/9/2007 12:37:58 AM








Believe or not the Russians also come to mind.  Russian Interior Ministry SOF units experienced a couple of botched operations as well.  The hostage rescue operations against Chechen terrorist at the Moscow theater and the school in Beslan are two prime examples.  A lot of mistakes were made and a lot of civilians died because of them. 








I think this comes from a very loose definition of "special".  In some nations it seems "special forces" can consist of any unit that can be trusted with 20 rounds of ammunition a man and not try to over throw el-presidente.



Then you have nations that seem to "mass produce" special forces - see Russian Speznatz, North Korean (whatever they call ems), heck the Iraq Republican Guard was supposed to be an elite force wasn't it?  I think this list could get pretty long is with a wide variety capability versus incompotence.



 



Then you have the media / hollywood special forces that believe anyone in a beret is triple secret double probation ninja like our friend Braddock.   Since I haven't vented on this for at least two day... Damn who ever it was that decided the US Army should wear berets!    We are not the firking French or some other Euro army.. 



 



Then you have the general sort of acknowledged special forces like the SAS or US special forces.



 



Then you have those folks that say the above are still too big to really be special and you run into all these really tiny groups with strange names (or various letters) and people that go off to write books about how cool they are but can't really talk about it.



 



So which group are we talking about in the reverse pecker competition? 




You beat me to the punch, with the Iraqi Republican Guard.  I don't know if they where SOF, but they were supposedly the elite soilders.



what the iraqi repubs' lacked was competant leadership
 
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joe6pack       1/9/2007 12:49:25 AM
Botched hostage rescues it is.. 
 
OK, to show that even us Americans can trip over our XL sized peckers.. on occasion... ahem.. "Desert One".    I'm certainly not volunteering us for the worst SF (besides, Old Grunt scares me and might take it personal )  But, it goes to show everyone can have a bad day.
 
other stuff that comes to mind..
 
Was that GSG9 (or whatever the German SF is) that tried for the Black September guys in Munich?
 
Err.. I thought I had a longer list.. but its getting late..
 
 
 
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gf0012-aust       1/9/2007 1:29:39 AM

Didn't realize there were that many in Africa, are they any good? Any idea on their selection?

 
I can think of at least 4 african states that currently have US and/or UK specwarrie advisers for their specwarrie training - and they're not duds.  The french are also in there as trainers...

 
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smitty237       1/9/2007 11:19:11 AM
I figured someone would bring up Eagle One, the botched Delta hostage rescue in Iran in 1979.  That wasn't Delta's fault, so you can't really count that one against them, but it did lead to the formation of Task Force 160 in the Air Force.  You can have the best SOF force on the planet, but if a poorly trained or prepared pilot makes a mistake and crashes the helicopter or aircraft the snake eaters are riding, then all that expertise becomes a moot point. 
 
The whole Moscow theater thing was  disaster.  From what I've heard the whole intent was to put everyone to sleep and then raid the building and kill the terrorists, but somebody screwed the pooch.  The gas put the terrorists to sleep all right, but they used too high of a dose and killed quite a few people.  I seriously doubt the Ruskies would have pumped the gas in if they had thought it was going to kill any of the hostages.  As far as the Interior Ministry troops shooting the terrorists goes, that's the truth.  I've seen the pictures.  Female Chechen terrorists had bombs strapped to them and they dispersed among the hostages in the seats of the theater.  All of the female bombers fell asleep and were either dead or dying when Alpha stormed the joint.  Each bomber was shot between the eyes at point blank range.  I heard that the Russians later wrapped the Chechens' bodies in pig skins before they buried them, which according to Islam would supposedly prevent them from going to heaven.  I thought that was a nice touch. 
 
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Ehran       1/9/2007 12:11:25 PM




 



Then you have the media / hollywood special forces that believe anyone in a beret is triple secret double probation ninja like our friend Braddock.   Since I haven't vented on this for at least two day... Damn who ever it was that decided the US Army should wear berets!    We are not the firking French or some other Euro army.. 

friend of mine was in the canadian arty years ago and has a story about going down to a large exercise at fort lewis.  most of the canadians arrived in busses and all pretty much at the same time so the parking area was overrun by guys in various coloured berets.  couple of american soldiers came up to my buddy and started asking about the different coloured berets and he was telling them who did what based on the beret colours.  as they walked away he overheard one say "holy crap they have special forces tankers and arty".  a great many of the canadians went home bare headed from that ex having swapped their "sf" berets away.   
 
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GOP       1/9/2007 12:22:16 PM

The whole Moscow theater thing was  disaster.  From what I've heard the whole intent was to put everyone to sleep and then raid the building and kill the terrorists, but somebody screwed the pooch.  The gas put the terrorists to sleep all right, but they used too high of a dose and killed quite a few people.  I seriously doubt the Ruskies would have pumped the gas in if they had thought it was going to kill any of the hostages.  As far as the Interior Ministry troops shooting the terrorists goes, that's the truth.  I've seen the pictures.  Female Chechen terrorists had bombs strapped to them and they dispersed among the hostages in the seats of the theater.  All of the female bombers fell asleep and were either dead or dying when Alpha stormed the joint.  Each bomber was shot between the eyes at point blank range.  I heard that the Russians later wrapped the Chechens' bodies in pig skins before they buried them, which according to Islam would supposedly prevent them from going to heaven.  I thought that was a nice touch. 
Yeah, they did use the too high a dosage of gas, which does show a lack of professionalism...I didn't think about that.  Smitty, you are the SWAT expert, can you tell me more about the type of gas used, the regular dosage vs. what the Russians used, etc?

 
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Ehran       1/9/2007 12:25:43 PM

Botched hostage rescues it is.. 

 

OK, to show that even us Americans can trip over our XL sized peckers.. on occasion... ahem.. "Desert One".    I'm certainly not volunteering us for the worst SF (besides, Old Grunt scares me and might take it personal )  But, it goes to show everyone can have a bad day.

 

to be fair if what i've read about desert one is at all correct the blame isn't on the poor bloody sf guys executing the plan it would be much further up the chain of command and their insistence that every branch be involved etc.
 
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bob the brit       1/9/2007 4:41:19 PM




Botched hostage rescues it is.. 



 



OK, to show that even us Americans can trip over our XL sized peckers.. on occasion... ahem.. "Desert One".    I'm certainly not volunteering us for the worst SF (besides, Old Grunt scares me and might take it personal )  But, it goes to show everyone can have a bad day.



 



to be fair if what i've read about desert one is at all correct the blame isn't on the poor bloody sf guys executing the plan it would be much further up the chain of command and their insistence that every branch be involved etc.


don't get me wrong lads... i wasn't implying delta cocked up or anyone with boots on the ground at desert one... what i meant is it just goes to show how negative of an affect misfortunate occurences can have on a SF hostage rescue attempt, after all you can't really say anyone brought the haboobs into the equation (actually, i'll bet you it was them bloody iranians will it to happen) in hindsight, you can say more should have been done by mission planners; i.e. send ten rh53d's instead of eight, learn more about haboobs (dust storms) but the outcome was just as much affected by a nasty string of misfortunes as it was lack of planning.
 
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bob the brit       1/9/2007 8:09:43 PM

Botched hostage rescues it is.. 

 

OK, to show that even us Americans can trip over our XL sized peckers.. on occasion... ahem.. "Desert One".    I'm certainly not volunteering us for the worst SF (besides, Old Grunt scares me and might take it personal )  But, it goes to show everyone can have a bad day.

 

other stuff that comes to mind..

 

Was that GSG9 (or whatever the German SF is) that tried for the Black September guys in Munich?

 

Err.. I thought I had a longer list.. but its getting late..

 

 


the western german govnmt created GSG-9 as part of the border police due to the events at munich, they were declared operational on April 1973. their claim to fame was the mogadishu rescue in '77. can't quite remember the unit(s) involved against blck sept' in munich... likely just the west german police and border police-they always helped handling internal affairs. i don't think any sf was involved as very few if any CT units existed or were operational before the munich incident. it was what promoted the need for trained and proficient CT units

 
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