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Subject: Unconventional warfare v. direct action.
longrifle    7/4/2006 6:11:34 PM
I found this article on another board and thought it looked like something that would interest a lot of readers here. I remember reading that Colonel Aaran Bank warned about this when SF was first formed. He was concerned that SF would be used as a commando force when so much more could be accompolished by using them as a force mulitplier. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- By Sean D. Naylor Army Times staff writer U.S. Special Operations Command must not allow a focus on “direct action” missions to kill or capture enemies to overwhelm its responsibility for the more “indirect” methods associated with unconventional warfare, a panel of experts warned Congress on June 29. “This struggle is more than the global manhunt, it’s more than the direct action piece, it’s more than combat,” retired Army Gen. Wayne Downing, a former SOCom chief, told the House Armed Services subcommittee on terrorism, unconventional threats and capabilities. “These are necessary activities in Iraq and Afghanistan, but they are not enough,” Downing said. Downing was speaking at a hearing on SOCom’s missions and responsibilities. In their opening statements, Reps. Jim Saxton, R-N.J., the subcommittee chairman, and Marty Meehan, D-Mass., the panel’s ranking Democrat, both raised the issue of whether the command is focused too much on direct action at the expense of unconventional capabilities that could prove more decisive in achieving strategic success in the war on terrorism. In the U.S. special operations community, direct action has been the preserve of Joint Special Operations Command, a SOCom subordinate element based at Pope Air Force Base, N.C. JSOC comprises the military’s most secretive “special mission units,” such as the Army’s 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta, the Navy’s SEAL Team 6, the Army’s 75th Ranger Regiment and 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment, and the Air Force’s 24th Special Tactics Squadron. Other Navy SEAL units also specialize in direct action. But unconventional warfare, which includes working with foreign guerrilla forces, is often used to describe a wider range of “nonkinetic” missions, such as training foreign militaries, that traditionally have belonged to Special Forces. There have long been rumblings of discontent in the Special Forces community that their skills are not as highly prized within SOCom as those of units specializing in direct action. “We’ve got to get after developing friends and allies and proxies, because when you fight an insurgency, the best people to do this are the host countries, not American forces,” said Downing, a former Ranger. Max Boot, a senior fellow in national security studies at the Council on Foreign Relations, was more critical, saying SOCom “falls far short of what we need” by being overly focused on direct action — “rappelling out of helicopters, kicking down doors, and capturing or killing bad guys.” While such strategy sometimes pays off with the elimination of individual enemy leaders such as Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, “making real progress, whether in Iraq or other locales, will require accomplishing much more difficult, less glamorous tasks such as establishing security, furthering economic and political development, and spreading the right information to win over the populace,” he said. Bias toward direct action Boot quoted two unnamed Special Forces officers — one a colonel, the other a general officer — who wrote him complaining of what they saw as SOCom’s bias toward direct action. That bias is so heavy, Boot said, that “it is doubtful any amount of outside pressure, even from this committee, will change the dominant mind-set very much, especially when the Office of the Secretary of Defense remains so fixated on such missions.” As a result, he said, there is “growing interest” in the Special Forces community in possibly creating a Joint Unconventional Warfare Command within SOCom, which would gather Special Forces, civil affairs and psychological operations units in an unconventional warfare equivalent to the existing Joint Special Operations Command. “This strikes me as a good idea,” Boot said. “But I would also urge the committee to consider going further and removing the unconventional warfare mission from SOCom altogether.” Former Special Forces officer and CIA operative Michael Vickers, now director of strategic studies at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, a Washington think tank, said he thinks an unconventional warfare command within SOCom is a good idea. However, he warned, this could “tie up scarce [special operations forces] human capital in additional headquarters” and duplicate functions of SOCom’s newly established Center for Special Operations, which has the mission to plan, support and execute special operations.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action.   8/24/2006 1:06:50 PM
>>Some of you "naysayers" may want to check your stats on who has killed/captured the most "persons of interest" in Afghanistan and Iraq.<< SF. Next question? >>In June of last year, a SR Team of SDV SEALs were ambushed, 3 killed and 1 lived. The QRF Chinook, filled with a mixture of SDV and Team10 SEALs along with the 160th SOAR air crew, were shot out of the sky trying to rescue their Brothers. That doesn't make them "less of a Warrior" for something that they can't control. << Basic fundamental violations of SOPs and common sense make them less operators regardless of whether they were something as irrelevant and nebulous as "warriors." Achmed al-Jacka$$ and company are "warriors" when they get killed by the cartload, whatever that's worth. The guys who smoked George Custer and the 7th Cavalry were "warriors" -- how's that working out for them nowadays? Professionalism and self-discipline are what sets the winners aside from the losers, and has been since Roman times, if not earlier. The SR team that got whacked demonstrated a lack of professionalism at least in certain open-sourced senses . . . >>I'll touch on the UW vs DA debate. UW is the "bread and butter" of SF. They are the best in the world at it. Yes, there are a few ODA's that specialize in DA and other specialties, but as a whole, they are the UW "specialists".<< When did you write this? 1985? >>SOCOM would not be asking NSW to expand the man power if they weren't successful in the GWOT. << Last I heard they were not asking them to expand, just reshuffling existing manpower.
 
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peepee       4/23/2008 5:32:38 PM

Good post....but

As far as SOF training goes, BUD/S is considered by most in the world to be the toughest military training in the world...mostly mentally. Physically it is hard to compare, but there is almost nothing as mentally tough/hard as sitting in 60F water for 15 minutes right after having done Grinder PT and running for 4 miles, along with only getting 3-4 hours of sleep the night before and knowing that this is going to happen for 6 more months. Comparing the Q course as "Hell month" to BUD/S "Hell week" is ridiculous. Hell week is the biggest kick in the balls in military training, bar none. The evolutions are none stop, there is almost no sleep, and you spend alot more time in the ice cold water.

If you can survive BUD/S, then you have proven you can survive anything. If you can make it through SQT, then you can be an apprentice in the SEAL Teams. If you can go through SEAL Pre-Deployment training, then you are one of the best water commandos in the world. Alot of people think that Water Commando's are becoming useless in the GWOT, but when you look at all of the tiny islands in the South Pacific in places like Indonesia, Thailand, and Malaysia where terrorism is spreading, then you would know that we need some very good Combat swimmers.
 
Dude. You're extremely ignorant and borderline dumb.  I'll tell you now, I have been through SFAS and am Im in the Q Course now... I usually don't get into these pissing contest mainly because they are stupid and a waste of my time... and usually amount to nothing.  They also usually come from individuals who have done NOTHING in the fields they are arguing in behalf of.  With that being said...
1.  My team/class captain in the Q course was a SEAL for 6 years (enlisted).  He got his commission in the Army and went to Ranger Recon.  His intent all along with the Army was to go SF.  He went to SFAS with me (which is where we met) and his comments were simply this.  You make your own generalizations as I did.
ME:  How does this compare to BUDS?
SCUBA STEVE:  This is the most extreme thing I have ever done in my life. 
ME:  So you wouldnt say that BUDS is "harder".
SCUBA STEVE:  BUDS is much less harder on your body.  At BUDS they have Docs attending to you if things get to out of hand (ie: the water is too cold and hypothermia becomes an issue). 
This conversation took place on day 6 of SFAS.  At that point here is what we had done.  We only recieved approximately 1-1.5 hours of sleep per night.  We had already rucked over 150 miles with Rucks which weigh between 80-90 lbs.  We did log and rifle P
 
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YOUGOTYOURASSKICKED       6/15/2008 5:25:37 AM
that sounds like some hardcore training. 60%  washout rate? and SEALs quitting? SEALs never quit. its in their creed, "I will never fail", BUD/S has an attrition rate of  70% avg. but that sounds tuff. jeez.   i thought BUD/S was the toughest military training in the world... but...SFAS?    
 
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GOP       8/26/2008 2:39:40 AM
Reshtet, what are your credentials? Completely understand if you don't want anyone online to know. Im just curious.
 
Again, you will see that 90% of these threads are years old.
 
I cringe when I see some of my posts, seriously. But I had to learn somehow.
 
 
 
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Old Grunt    reshtet   8/26/2008 10:06:30 AM
Thanks Timmy!
That's all very insightful but the adults would like to have a conversation now.
How about you go and get your homework done for school tomorrow?  Maybe Mom can bring you a bedtime snack!
 
 
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mough       8/26/2008 1:14:27 PM




Reshtet, what are your credentials? Completely understand if you don't want anyone online to know. Im just curious.



 



Again, you will see that 90% of these threads are years old.



 



I cringe when I see some of my posts, seriously. But I had to learn somehow.



 



 






GOP! You still haven't learned anything yet... All you do is copy first hand etc knowledge of experienced people,and

then ask for creds! It's a bad way to get a conversation going! I was in BUD/s class 234...



How convenient you just happened to be in class 234, probably the most reported on class in SEAL history, TV show's, book's ect.....small World ain't it, there seem's to be a lot of class 234 guy's on the net.....
 
 
biggest class in history.
 
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bob the brit       8/26/2008 2:08:03 PM




Reshtet, what are your credentials? Completely understand if you don't want anyone online to know. Im just curious.



 



Again, you will see that 90% of these threads are years old.



 



I cringe when I see some of my posts, seriously. But I had to learn somehow.



 



 






GOP! You still haven't learned anything yet... All you do is copy first hand etc knowledge of experienced people,and

then ask for creds! It's a bad way to get a conversation going! I was in BUD/s class 234...



how convenient... I had a good chum in 234. went by the moniker of rusty... heard of him perhaps Reshet? i'm bob by the way, you soon learn more about me.
 
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bob the brit       8/26/2008 9:26:44 PM

I don't care who you are! Stay in your stream of posts!

unfortunatley [for you] this is my 'stream' of posts, my past life kind of gave me a good knowledge of all things sneaky beaky. anyway, care to reply to the question about my old pal or did i just call your bluff?
 
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GOP       8/27/2008 1:39:10 AM

*Laughs at thought of Reshtet thinking Old Grunt, Mough, and Bob have no military experience*

 
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bob the brit       8/27/2008 9:56:14 PM

*Laughs at thought of Reshtet thinking Old Grunt, Mough, and Bob have no military experience*


me with military experience? no no no GOP, you've got it all wrong... i was simply a milkman [of course i had the toughest route in greater london, thus i was seconded to the Task Force milk group]... what did you think i did GOP?

 
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