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Subject: NAVY SEALS VS BRITISH SAS
LJ813    7/1/2005 9:34:17 PM
I WILL GO FOR THE NAVY..
 
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gaffer       5/6/2011 5:50:16 PM
Devildawg, The only way you can comminucate or have dialog is with obscene expressions. What is your level of education man?
America brags on its prowess ALL THE TIME, we are the best this,we are the best that but if anybody dare to toot their horn you are offended,as if you got here all by yourself.
You say on the military channel all the time you have the greatest tank, the abrams, do you know the highly impenetrable armor it has was developed by the British and given to you...Saves lives
Do you know that it was the British who developed Radar in WW2 and give it to you...saves lives.
Do you know that great fighter plane in WW2 that WON the airwar for the allies was NOTHING until a British engine was put in it, The Rolls Royce Merlin!...Saves lives.
Check out history and stop acting silly..Man.
 
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Reactive       5/6/2011 7:51:36 PM
Why the need for this pointless pissing match?
 
EVERYONE I have ever met in active service or connected to the def industry or civil service on either side has a healthy measure of respect for other forces, it is, as above, armchair generals who feel the need to try and bash each other..
 
Both nations have also had their share of glory, have had their share of pioneering inventions and ideas, to belittle those is childish and frankly pointless, what do you hope to achieve?
 
All the important inventions cited above, and a whole lot more can be attributed to the UK but how is that relevant to the current strategic situation?
 
Stop this pointless argument over nothing, no one's opinion is ever likely to change, and while patriotism is an admirable quality, if the debate comes down to nothing more than nationalist vitriol then there is no point in it in the first place.
 
For the record, I am British, I am rightly proud of certain things but I don't let that cloud my judgement of the reality that exists, which is that in a whole range of areas there is a growing defecit between our forces and those of the US, that is a fact and in no small part due to progressive funding cuts and the difficulties that we (in the UK) have in recruitment of skilled and capable personel, having said this, we do still have some exceptional capabilites, and if you want an example of these look no further than the penetration of BAe systems in to the US market.
 
The SAS have (in the UK) taken on an unhealthy amount of myth in popular culture, especially since Andy McNob popularised a whole bunch of unsubstantiated lies that gave the impression these units were essentially supermen.
 
If you want to have a circlejerk about which special forces units that no one here knows anything particularly informative about then by all means knock yourselves out, but this stupid pointless thread has in over 600 posts achieved precisely FA.
 
R

 
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devildawg    Drinking the Kool Aid from Jonestown   5/7/2011 4:42:46 PM
Its intresting to see that a nerve was hit with you (Gaffer) that you had to respond with 3 replies.
 
I see your so full of Brit pride that you can't even admit that your police force are "punching dummies" for any anti-social misfit. I guess trying to convince you that American police need to come over their and help give your cops( i say that loosely)on some lessons pertaining to law enforcement and crowd control would be pointless. At least admit that your police look a little "girly" with their ties, sweathers, and nicely pressed uniforms. And c'mon whats up with "not having any guns"...you might as well hire the boy scouts to do the work. Its okay, dont' change. It makes for good TV. And plus, your much too civilized not defend yourselves.
 
You say, what do i know about SAS training. Well as a person who spent enough time in the US military; i know enough that the Seals have what is in my opinion (and i'm a former Marine) have the most rigourous entrance training program because it is all water oriented. I know enough of the SAS to say it is not--its more land oriented. You mention SAS not disclosing all of its successes. Well, i think all special units don't generally do that. But let's stick to the truth by ignoring national pride for a bit. Seals and Marine Force Recon (MARSOC) go back to WWII. Seals were officially organized as to be who they are by JFK in 1960. Green Berets go back to the 50--your SAS visited the Green Berets and took some lessons from them. Delta Force was modeled after the SAS--Col Beckwith. That was a good thing. But they took a life of themselves. Just because you may started a movement, does not make you the best.  You invented Soccer, Rugby, and Cricket. But other countries are a lot better than you now. SAS is not going to compete with a SEAL in the water. I'm not swimming proficient, but those who can master the sea and land are physically better. I don't know where you get this about an SAS unit swimming 2 miles in the ocean, but that is a trademark for every seal. Just to let you know it was Navy SEAL team 6 (Devgru) that brought down a lot of criminals other than Osama. Seal team 6 is a special unit within a special ops teams. Getting into the Seals is hard enough 80% fail rate, than after 6 months of BUDS they have go for an additional 18 months of traing. Than are they truly allowed to be called Seals. There is 50-60% failure rate in getting intor SEal team 6.
 
As far as the Marines are concerned. I think we would handled the IRA just fine. As we took care of the Iraqi insurgents and the Taliban terrorist. Well, i believe it would not have taken as long as it took you guys. Its all debatable.
 
And i don't believe any American hates the British. At least for me, i don't. I respect you guys, and thank God for our commonalities. I just think you guys get on your high horses and have a bit of inferiority complex. And you act like your military never learned from other militaries. I'll admit this. Your beer is a lot better.
 
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Reactive       5/7/2011 6:05:06 PM
So this waste of space "debate" has honestly come down to who has had better swimming lessons? No one currently posting in this thread has any basis for comparison in terms of operational doctrine, support, or anything else for that matter.

As far as the Marines are concerned. I think we would handled the IRA just fine. As we took care of the Iraqi insurgents and the Taliban terrorist. Well, i believe it would not have taken as long as it took you guys. Its all debatable.
 
You miss the point if you think that about the IRA, if you know anything about the issues you'll know that killing the IRA was not the primary objective - all it did, in every case when assasinations were actioned or "sponsored" through Unionists was to prolong the violence by making IRA recruitment easier, there were necessary limits with what could achieved without ending up with a civil war. What the US could have done as the primary source of fundraising for the IRA was very simple; to outlaw it and you failed to do so. The solution to the NI "troubles" was never a military one.
 
 
And i don't believe any American hates the British. At least for me, i don't. I respect you guys, and thank God for our commonalities. I just think you guys get on your high horses and have a bit of inferiority complex. And you act like your military never learned from other militaries. I'll admit this. Your beer is a lot better.
 
Right, there is clearly an inferiority complex with some of my countrymen evident generally when these entirely pointless "VS" debates happen, chalk that down to the legacy of the glory days of the British empire or whatever else, the bottom line is that the interesting parts of these debates are never nationalistic dick-waving contests, which is what this thread has essentially boiled down to.
 
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JTR~~    @devildawg   5/8/2011 12:19:57 PM

Its intresting to see that a nerve was hit with you (Gaffer) that you had to respond with 3 replies.

 

I see your so full of Brit pride that you can't even admit that your police force are "punching dummies" for any anti-social misfit. I guess trying to convince you that American police need to come over their and help give your cops( i say that loosely)on some lessons pertaining to law enforcement and crowd control would be pointless. At least admit that your police look a little "girly" with their ties, sweathers, and nicely pressed uniforms. And c'mon whats up with "not having any guns"...you might as well hire the boy scouts to do the work. Its okay, dont' change. It makes for good TV. And plus, your much too civilized not defend yourselves.

 

You say, what do i know about SAS training. Well as a person who spent enough time in the US military; i know enough that the Seals have what is in my opinion (and i'm a former Marine) have the most rigourous entrance training program because it is all water oriented. I know enough of the SAS to say it is not--its more land oriented. You mention SAS not disclosing all of its successes. Well, i think all special units don't generally do that. But let's stick to the truth by ignoring national pride for a bit. Seals and Marine Force Recon (MARSOC) go back to WWII. Seals were officially organized as to be who they are by JFK in 1960. Green Berets go back to the 50--your SAS visited the Green Berets and took some lessons from them. Delta Force was modeled after the SAS--Col Beckwith. That was a good thing. But they took a life of themselves. Just because you may started a movement, does not make you the best.  You invented Soccer, Rugby, and Cricket. But other countries are a lot better than you now. SAS is not going to compete with a SEAL in the water. I'm not swimming proficient, but those who can master the sea and land are physically better. I don't know where you get this about an SAS unit swimming 2 miles in the ocean, but that is a trademark for every seal. Just to let you know it was Navy SEAL team 6 (Devgru) that brought down a lot of criminals other than Osama. Seal team 6 is a special unit within a special ops teams. Getting into the Seals is hard enough 80% fail rate, than after 6 months of BUDS they have go for an additional 18 months of traing. Than are they truly allowed to be called Seals. There is 50-60% failure rate in getting intor SEal team 6.

 

As far as the Marines are concerned. I think we would handled the IRA just fine. As we took care of the Iraqi insurgents and the Taliban terrorist. Well, i believe it would not have taken as long as it took you guys. Its all debatable.

 

And i don't believe any American hates the British. At least for me, i don't. I respect you guys, and thank God for our commonalities. I just think you guys get on your high horses and have a bit of inferiority complex. And you act like your military never learned from other militaries. I'll admit this. Your beer is a lot better.


"And i don't believe any American hates the British. At least for me, i don't. I respect you guys, and thank God for our commonalities. I just think you guys get on your high horses and have a bit of inferiority complex. And you act like your military never learned from other militaries. I'll admit this. Your beer is a lot better."


The same is said this side of the pond about Americans, except about the beer thing, ours is genuinely superior ;)

Also who has definitively said that we have anything to have an inferiority complex about (referring to the argument in had here IE. NAVY SEALs vs. SAS)

You give a relatively sound argument, and I respect your insight however there are things that you have missed. Your insight may be with the US military but that cannot qualify you to dismiss the SAS as the inferior force. Yes you will know about certain things that the SEALs may have to undertake, but by the same token you cannot know of what the SAS do. In fact no one really does, esp
 
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JTR~~    Reactive   5/8/2011 12:31:07 PM

So this waste of space "debate" has honestly come down to who has had better swimming lessons? No one currently posting in this thread has any basis for comparison in terms of operational doctrine, support, or anything else for that matter.





As far as the Marines are concerned. I think we would handled the IRA just fine. As we took care of the Iraqi insurgents and the Taliban terrorist. Well, i believe it would not have taken as long as it took you guys. Its all debatable.

 

You miss the point if you think that about the IRA, if you know anything about the issues you'll know that killing the IRA was not the primary objective - all it did, in every case when assasinations were actioned or "sponsored" through Unionists was to prolong the violence by making IRA recruitment easier, there were necessary limits with what could achieved without ending up with a civil war. What the US could have done as the primary source of fundraising for the IRA was very simple; to outlaw it and you failed to do so. The solution to the NI "troubles" was never a military one.


 

 

And i don't believe any American hates the British. At least for me, i don't. I respect you guys, and thank God for our commonalities. I just think you guys get on your high horses and have a bit of inferiority complex. And you act like your military never learned from other militaries. I'll admit this. Your beer is a lot better.

 

Right, there is clearly an inferiority complex with some of my countrymen evident generally when these entirely pointless "VS" debates happen, chalk that down to the legacy of the glory days of the British empire or whatever else, the bottom line is that the interesting parts of these debates are never nationalistic dick-waving contests, which is what this thread has essentially boiled down to.



Thoroughly satirical and a pleasure to read as always. Good points made especially concerning the IRA. To my knowledge if anything else the main mission was too protect civilians and keep casualties as a result of IRA activity to a minimum and hopefully buy enough time through that to come to some form of diplomatic ending. More of a hearts and minds affair than anything else, it was never going to come to a solution via military means,  in my opinion partially as a result of their ideology which is markedly different from that adopted by the Taliban in which military action against them is more appropriate/more useful than is ever was against the IRA.

 

"Right, there is clearly an inferiority complex with some of my countrymen evident generally when these entirely pointless "VS" debates happen, chalk that down to the legacy of the glory days of the British empire or whatever else, the bottom line is that the interesting parts of these debates are never nationalistic dick-waving contests, which is what this thread has essentially boiled down to. "

 

ah but the same here can be said of our cousins across the pond, the Us nationalists on here in equal if not greater numbers, however in saying this i would say that there are also higher proportions of them that make genuinely useful and well rounded points. we can be as equally arrogant as each other hence the frequency of the nationalistic arguments to be found here, neither side wishes to give ground, and admittedly I have on occasion been part of such argument, but in defence I only acted in defence of my nation in the face of ignorance in an attempt to balance otherwise completely bias affair.

Best Regards JTR~~
 
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JTR~~    @Reactive   5/8/2011 12:36:31 PM

Too bad you guys are second rate, if not third. I don't blame a lot of you guys for being jealous. You wish your country and military was like the US. Your police gets man handled by a bunch of kids (anti-austerity anarchist protestors), your SAS gets captured in Libya and in Persian Gulf War 1. You seem to want to brag about how you invented and developed everything. Get Real. You guys have done some intresting things, but go around parading that your the best in the world. You simply don't have the caliber of soldiers (recruits) that you may once had. And give up some of your pride and admit the truth. Americans are confident enough to admit failure and learning things from others. We even trained you in a thing or two; we also have been the model for other countries.


as if to prove my point quite nicely that i made to you in my previous reply in response to your statement of nationalistic sentiment clouding judgement and of how the same can be said of our American cousins, perhaps even to a greater extent, well i present you with an extract from lunar (most probably an American from what I can deduce).

Regards JTR~~
 
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JTR~~    sigh...   5/8/2011 12:41:01 PM
"Yes you are right about being a limy.
The only things countries learn about you cowards (i,e,. surrender to the iranian navy, surrender of Basra and weak performance in Iraq and Afghanistan"
 
 
and in my previous reply to Devildawg i thought i was talking to a person who was quite reasonable and had not yet succumbed to nation/force bashing, obviously i was quite mistaken,  once again i highlights the point Reactive made quite nicely.
 
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gaffer       5/8/2011 1:53:34 PM
Devildawg, Cowards, Great Britain is an island nation and have at least 600 years of being the leader of western civiluzation. (  you do not even have 1/2 that and you are more than 10 times as large) This island nation has brought civilization to the entire world more or less, leaving the stamp of social and cultural advancement to MANY developing countries.Shaped the military of many nations, teaching them how to protect their sovereignty. The oil industry that is the bedrock of the west was pioneered by good old England, study the history of petroleum,British blood have been shed all over the globe. Brittania ruled the waves longer than you and such a small nation..cowards, you say. Do you think your world power will last as long seeing the magnitude of your internal problems???? Britain dont sell out to the Chinese like some of their friends do, there is too much national love for country...Cowards, you must be joking.
We have helped you in every conflict you have ever been in and are the only allies you can depend on and you spout off about COWARDS.
Britain stood alone against the Germans in 1940,the battle of Britain and the lads flew somtimes 3 missions a day every day for one month and never gave an inch against unbelievable odds...cowards, I know you cant really believe that..
Is there not British soldiers dying in Afganistan right now. When one British life is lost it is a greater impact because of limited numbers of people where as you have unlimited reserves of people. Look at the size of Britain (google earth it) and its population compared to yours and how the British military has throught history has aided you with military technology and stood beside you and what is the thanks.....Cowards..How the dickens you all can be so hateful and callous defies the imagination!
 
 
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lunar    Easy   5/9/2011 8:23:48 AM

Devildawg, Cowards, Great Britain is an island nation and have at least 600 years of being the leader of western civiluzation. (  you do not even have 1/2 that and you are more than 10 times as large) This island nation has brought civilization to the entire world more or less, leaving the stamp of social and cultural advancement to MANY developing countries.Shaped the military of many nations, teaching them how to protect their sovereignty. The oil industry that is the bedrock of the west was pioneered by good old England, study the history of petroleum,British blood have been shed all over the globe. Brittania ruled the waves longer than you and such a small nation..cowards, you say. Do you think your world power will last as long seeing the magnitude of your internal problems???? Britain dont sell out to the Chinese like some of their friends do, there is too much national love for country...Cowards, you must be joking.

We have helped you in every conflict you have ever been in and are the only allies you can depend on and you spout off about COWARDS.

Britain stood alone against the Germans in 1940,the battle of Britain and the lads flew somtimes 3 missions a day every day for one month and never gave an inch against unbelievable odds...cowards, I know you cant really believe that..

Is there not British soldiers dying in Afganistan right now. When one British life is lost it is a greater impact because of limited numbers of people where as you have unlimited reserves of people. Look at the size of Britain (google earth it) and its population compared to yours and how the British military has throught history has aided you with military technology and stood beside you and what is the thanks.....Cowards..How the dickens you all can be so hateful and callous defies the imagination!

 


Easy...easy big guy. Your taking this way to personal.
 
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