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Subject: NAVY SEALS VS BRITISH SAS
LJ813    7/1/2005 9:34:17 PM
I WILL GO FOR THE NAVY..
 
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GOP    RE:SCP - Slow down there...   1/24/2006 8:44:54 PM
>>Thats a very good point, isn't it better to be able to cover more distance in a shorter time? << As HS said, there is no evidence of any difference as far as rucking goes. Being in better cardio shape is good, but you definitely n eed strength in your legs to be able to carry a heavy load on your back for a long distance. There isn't any difference that we would be able to tell, so it is a moot point.
 
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Yimmy    RE:SCP - Slow down there...   1/24/2006 9:08:21 PM
"but you definitely n eed strength in your legs to be able to carry a heavy load on your back for a long distance." That is true, but it isn't nearly as important as lung power. So long as you can suck in the air, it doesn't matter too greatly if your legs feel weak, as all you need do is lean forwards as you march, and pick your feet up, and your momentum will keep you moving.
 
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GOP    RE:SCP - Slow down there...   1/25/2006 12:26:53 AM
>>That is true, but it isn't nearly as important as lung power. So long as you can suck in the air, it doesn't matter too greatly if your legs feel weak, as all you need do is lean forwards as you march, and pick your feet up, and your momentum will keep you moving.<< I have never marched with a ruck, but it sounds correct...plus, you are the expert. How did your 4k (? - sorry if I got it wrong) go awhile back?
 
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Yimmy    RE:SCP - Slow down there...   1/27/2006 2:03:02 PM
I don't know that I'm an expert on it GOP, but I know what makes me find a march easier. I haven't done any real tabbing for a while, so I'm not quite sure what your reffering to. I did a little CFT with my Logistics lot this last Sunday, to bounty qualify for the year, but that is just 4 miles with 35 pounds plus rifle, although I do tend to take more for the exercise. I normally get chosen as one of the safety guys, which involves tabbing ahead of the others and blocking off roads, before running back to the front when they have passed, which makes it quite a lot easier than just plodding along. The breif stops on roads allows you to get your breath back, while the running back to the front takes the weight off your legs. You should practice tabbing with weight GOP, it really isn't hard, but you will need to be very good at it if you want to go for special forces. For the longer distances, it all becomes a mental thing, you get into a rythem of step after step until you eventually find it more effort to stop for a water break than to just keep on moving. Longrifle, Horsesoldier and Shek will be able to give you more advice than me.
 
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GOP    RE:SCP - Slow down there...   1/27/2006 2:35:25 PM
>>I haven't done any real tabbing for a while, so I'm not quite sure what your reffering to. I did a little CFT with my Logistics lot this last Sunday, to bounty qualify for the year, but that is just 4 miles with 35 pounds plus rifle, although I do tend to take more for the exercise. I normally get chosen as one of the safety guys, which involves tabbing ahead of the others and blocking off roads, before running back to the front when they have passed, which makes it quite a lot easier than just plodding along. The breif stops on roads allows you to get your breath back, while the running back to the front takes the weight off your legs.<< Sorry, I saw your post on the infantry board mentioning having to get ready for a 4 mile ruck, I guess this was it. >>You should practice tabbing with weight GOP, it really isn't hard, but you will need to be very good at it if you want to go for special forces. For the longer distances, it all becomes a mental thing, you get into a rythem of step after step until you eventually find it more effort to stop for a water break than to just keep on moving.<< I really need to, but I don't have a good ruck. I have been training my legs for endurance (on a exercise bike, 10-15 miles with a good bit of resistance), I also do heavy squats... but I guess the best way to prepare for rucking is rucking. Not sure if I want to go Special Forces, I would rather go regular USMC at first (or maybe a USMC-R unit), and then if/when I get ready for their newly developed SOCOM force, I could try out and see if I am good enough to make it. I have just come to the conclusion that I won't be ready for 18x, because I won't have the background to be able to ruck and do the land nav thing (I could go Army light infantry, but the USMC, on average, lands all of the better recruits...so I would be surrounded by much better, more experienced people). Kill-Kill-Kill, Oorah :)
 
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Yimmy    RE:SCP - Slow down there...   1/27/2006 3:13:16 PM
I also use an exercise bike, and do squats. On the bike I tend to do either 9 miles in 30 mins, or 18 miles in an hour.... great if you like having a numb arse. If you do that, then you will likely be fine with tabbing. You shouldnt tab with much weight often anyway, the impacts are bad for your knees. Also, don't worry about land navigation. Just buy a book on it, or ask someone like shek(?) if they could note down the basics, and revise that. In all honesty I can't really remember much of it myself, its been ages since I had to navigate using anything but a road map! The thing I am supposed to be getting ready for is my infantry CIC training that I was talking to Iano about in the Surface Ships forum. It's just a 2 week affaire doing some 8 mile CFT's, and tabbing to form-up points and stuff.
 
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joe6pack    RE:SCP - Slow down there... - GOP   1/27/2006 3:43:13 PM
Yimmy's right on with rucking it. I'm no expert but I'd like to think that after 8 years in light infantry units give me some idea. Strength in legs does help, but in order of importance i'd say it goes something like this: (1) Willpower. Your body can go a lot farther than it tries to make you think. You just need to be able to keep your mind off discomfort. A second hand story from a buddy that whent through SF selection. One of the things they apparently do will be to tell you ok, you need to do say 18 miles as quick as you can and as you finish and think you are done they tell you to go some insidious number of additional miles. (Apparently to see who will quit) (2) As Yimmy said, "lung power".. If you can breath you can generally keep marching. After that, things get debatable. General physical fitness of course helps. Knowing how to properly pack a ruck and wear your gear is no small thing (usually comes with practice). Getting into a rythm. Nothing actually gets you ready for rucking it like actually doing it. It's one of those things you just don't think about. I did all sorts of things to try and get into shape before enlisting but rucking it wasn't one of them. Those first few (short and light weight) marches kicked my @ss. In regards to Land Nav - The principals of it a pretty simple. Could teach it to anyone in an afternoon. - Map reading and orientation - Pace count - Use of a compass - Terrain association You end up in a light infantry unit and you will do lots of it. Although while you can learn the principals of it easy enough its a skill that needs to be practiced. Some people also just seem to naturally have a difficult time with it.
 
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memo    RE:NAVY SEALS VS BRITISH SAS    3/3/2006 3:34:57 PM
ahhh navy seal vs s.a.s is like comparing a frog and a cat delta should be more appropiate but then again s.a.s >>>>>>> by far over navy but slightly over delta as admitted by some of the delta guys while conductin military games which brings me to the next question....... british s.a.s or australian s.a.s?????? :) patriot-brit u r excluded to answer as i know what ur response might be.lol
 
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DropShort    RE:NAVY SEALS VS BRITISH SAS    3/3/2006 5:46:59 PM
This is a particularly difficult thread for my first posting, but why not? I think the argument is pointless, to start. There is in no way in which you can prove which of the two is better, unless you put them at war against each other (and we don’t want that) Just going on man power alone the lad’s at Hereford are enormously out-gunned, and with the British military budget (Murphy’s law number 6 – your weapon was made by the lowest bidder… that about sums up the British Army, only everything was supplied by the lowest bidder!) ... well, that’s another thread altogether. I have read through a lot of the previous postings about SF selection, training etc… How many of the people posting here have completed either? I served with Para’s and Commando’s in the same unit (One unit disbanded and amalgamated with another); there was always rivalry between the two. Only a hand full of the lad’s I served with had completed both P-company (Para selection) and the All Arms Commando Course. If you asked them which was harder, they would always reply that they were both as difficult in their own ways. But back to Special Forces… For a unit as small as the SAS to be as universally known as it is, and it’s exploits so widely broadcast (although this is not a good thing) goes to show that strength in numbers doesn’t always mean the best… Both countries have fantastic Special Forces, both having their plus and minus points. At the end of the day, we are both on the same side… So can we settle for a stale-mate?
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:NAVY SEALS VS BRITISH SAS    3/3/2006 6:48:08 PM
>>by far over navy but slightly over delta as admitted by some of the delta guys while conductin military games << Just out of curiousity, which Delta guys were saying the SAS was slightly superior? Have a credible source for such a statement? Etc. I'm not saying the SAS are not good, but I tend to be extremely dubious of claims that "Delta said this, SAS said that, SEAL Team 6 told this one guy this thing" etc without a solid citation. Even then I tend to remain skeptical unless the author has a rock solid reputation -- most newspaper reporters need not apply, for instance . . .
 
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