Admit it - you were just all excited thinking about Spetznaz.  Sounds like you joined up with the wrong guys, if you had been Russian then you really could have had some fun during the Cold War.

I was actually trying to figure out how many people ended up on the rope at once, but I remember reading in someone's SEAL book I think that they lined everyone up and didn't wait for the rope to clear.  It makes my post sound a bit more impressive anyway.  I'm still a little confused, did your friends end up changing their roping procedures in the end or not?

I wonder if some of these guys aren't having the last laugh, they come in as one-post wonders and just sit back and wait for us to get into a frenzy trying to prove them wrong.  Beats doing homework I guess.

fun during the war that required hat and mittens? a number of the super special spetznaz were on sign post detail, in other words, changing signs so that in the event of a western invasion, we wouldn't know where we were going [rather odd tactic i thought], knowing my luck, i'd have got stuck in that department, as opposed to testing my mettle against the mujaheedin.

as for the roping, all depends how high the heli is off the target surface, which is also determined by the type of bird it is. with smaller helis [such as sea king etc.] i think it was usually around the 30 feet mark so you figure you could have three men on the rope at all times. with something like a chinook it was more often around the 40-50 feet mark so about five or six men on the ropes. the difference was we rarely did dual roping [disembarking from both sides of a heli]. also bear in mind that the height a heli was from the target varied greatly due to a number of factors such as surrounding obstacles [ie. a building right next to the target was taller and thus prevented the heli getting to low to the target], or hostile fire from afar [HFFA - a term i made up and no one else took to... bast*rds] which made it necessary for a heli to get low to the target thus being sheilded by surrounding buildings ,not to close to the target, from hostile fire. these and a number of factors would always determine how close a heli could get and thus how many men would be on a rope at once.

 

and after that long drawl, the beck' bandits did begin to speed things up a bit [of course retraining saw a couple of minor injuries with leading ropers going too slow and getting knocked off by those above etc., all to be expected].

"...of course retraining saw a couple of minor injuries with leading ropers going too slow and getting knocked off by those above etc.,..."

I remember the number one rope spot being jokingly (or not) referred to as the "pillow position".

I don't recall working doubles except off Chinooks.  The only time things got bad was when we had the "Red Door" guys, which are student pilots from Ft. Rucker, flying us.  They would either not compensate for the change in AC load, resulting in running out of rope before you got to the ground, or overcompensating for the change in AC load and increasing your FPS at impact.

This has been an entertaining debate over the last few days, and as it's starting to fizzle, I thought I'd add my two cents.

Most cooperating armed forces train together and presumably so do elements of their special forces groups. I know the New Zealand SAS trains with the Australians and the British and that New Zealand troops are well regarded for their tracking skills and regularly train other units from around the world in this discipline.

 

As for who's better, we're probably splitting hairs, as it seems the gist of the threads posted suggests no one really knows. I would be curious to know therefore how well teams perform in training exercises which mimic combat scenarios. I have read stories from ex-SAS chaps where E&E were conducted and SAS troopers regularly out ran their American counterparts in what is esentially a race. This of course proves who might be fitter and better at navigation, but not "better"....

 

Some of the training methods I've heard from myth gatherers about NZSAS seem pretty extreme. Staring at static spitting TV screens for hours, being dumped in the middle of the ocean somewhere to swim your way back to shore, etc. Former NZ SAS and British 22 SAS Mike Cockburn, the kiwi from Bravo Two Zero patrol fame, talked of being so exhausted he fell asleep standing up having trekked his way through some pretty bad ass swamp somewhere north of Auckland during selection. He also described the sheer hell of the training selection for the British SAS and running over the Pen Y Fan hills and mountains in the Welsh back country. Somebody mentioned a lot of shouting in the Navy Seals and I really don't see this as any different to any experiences in either the British armed forces, such as the Royal Marines, or the Para's, or some of the nasty corporals I've heard of in the NZ Army who love breaking new recruits. Remembering that the SAS takes its recruits from those who've already served time and used to corporals and sergeants; from my understanding the attempts at breaking those trying to serve is much more subtle than merely bollocking squadies as they run up and down the parade ground etc. Former SAS member, Sergeant Eddie Stone, in the British reality series which pits above average Biritsh citizens against SAS training techniques mentioned that generally the shouting and screaming was less a feature of their training, especially if they'd made it past selection. It was more a matter of fine tuning the raw product and a lot of those who failed selection were caught unaware with trick questions and suggestions at moments of absolute exhaustion.  Sitting down with officers for a cup of tea being told  you'd made it to the end of the course for example. Anyone navigating correctly should know where they are, and certainly wouldn't be offered a cup of tea, etc, etc.

 

I began to think too of individuals connected to special forces who might lever opinion one way. A mountaineering friend told me the story of a Swedish special forces guy that bycicled his way to Mt Everest, climbed it, came back down, but only to be killed in an accident with a car not far from home. I don't know about you, but talk about tough, mate.... Then I thought about the one man in which the Brit's could play as a trump card, Sir Renulph Feinnes. Clearly the toughest man on earth. First man to cross the arctic and I believe the Antartic on foot. Cut off his own blackened and frost-bitten finger tips with a hack saw because they were pissing him off...much to the fury of his Italian surgeon apparently. 

 

 

 

 

Yes, we've all heard the training exercises in which our American SOF's are beaten every time by the SAS.. I have also heard that every single British Royal Marine in an exchange program with the SEALs passed BUD/S, where not a single SEAL didn't even make it to the commando course part of royal marine training. I have also heard some of the arrse croud talk about how the territorial army SAS (21SAS) "beat" CAG in a contest in every category.....

 

Honestly, where people come up with these stories is beyond me. How they get a hold of that information is also beyond me. One can pretty much chalk it up to fabricated fables of SAS fanboys, in the army or not. Why they always choose US forces as the victim of their tall tales, well, I don't know.

You will find that in a lot of memoirs of ex SOF types, that whatever SOF unit they are in always outperforms their counterparts on every exercise. Which means that these books and these writers should be taken with a block of salt. People who write these books are going to tell you how awesome they are, that's their raison d'etre. And that is probably why most people who write books about their experiences in SOF units are not well respected.

come on now DK, you should know the RM's did pass BUD/S, it was like Basic T to them. And the whole TA regiment beating Delta... completely false, it was the 23's not the artists [21's]. You might also heard of the shakies being personally asked by Bush himself if they would keep an eye on the SEALs whenever they worked together. I was also reading the daily mail [which means it must be true!] yesterday and they had a source [soldier Q i think he was called, all very hush hush, understandably] anyway, soldier Q said the Gee Bees [green berets] did a trainer with the royal scots'. Apparently, the royals were playing hunter and the Gee Bee's were the prey. The scots found every Gee Bee within five minutes, desppite being outnumbered, 10 to 1.

All this talk of fanboys, chew on this... some muppet once tried it on for size durng a little chit chat with me. 'Twas at his wedding [me missus knew the bride, or something like that], and during the after dinner drinks, I got talking with him. He pulled out the 'ex-regiment' card and for the whole conversation told me about all his escapades across the globe with the 22's. I thought it was golden, absolutely golden, and I decided not to say anything [didn't need to quiz, he was a stand out from the start]. Later on I went up to the bride as I had forgot to congratulate her after the ceremony at the church. I casually [and with a huge grin] made mention of her new hubby's previous career, to which she replied, "that f**king sod tries that one on with everybody he doesn't know, idiot's only ever worked at Tesco's". Anyway, later on in the night, the best man got everyone to gather again, he stood up and outed the groom as nothing but a shelf stacker and produce manager at Tesco's. Half the men in the tent [the reception was held in a marque] started lauging and it turned out he had gone around the whole night telling people he didn't know that he used to be SF. I almost cried laughing that night.