Horsesoldier, not trying to beat a dead horse at all...only trying to ask some questions to get a Army perspective on things... >>We'll simply have to agree to disagree -- your take on things is your own, based on your own research and sources and such. My take is mine and I don't see any real indicators to suggest my opinion of SEALs needs changing. (If anything, all I tend to hear simply reinforces it and suggests the question I raised in another thread of how much longer they'll fall under SOCOM at all, given their current run of botched ops and disciplinary embarassments, without some significant actions to address flaws in their institutional culture . . .).<< How many botched ops have the performed, outside of Takur Ghar? How many succusful ops? I would guess their ratio of Success to failure is equal to all SOCOM forces, excluding their mishaps with helicopter crashes and dumba** officers (out of their control). Is there any serious thought of kicking them out of SOCOM? >> readily admit my direct interaction with SEALs has been limited, but has only demonstrated that there is some reality to the stereotype of a lack of professionalism. Could be a bit of sampling error, since I don't deal with SEALs on a regular basis, I admit, but they're the only folks within SOCOM that I've dealt with who lacked professionalism so it tends to stick in the mind . . .<< What made them unproffesional? Were they tactically incompetent, or something other? >>The "don't be like the SEALs" teaching point is a quote from an 18-series guy I work with describing what was taught at a school he just completed, as in "the instructors were pushing 'don't be like the SEALs'" on a specific issue stemming from the mistakes the SEALs made in a recent operation(s). And the school was not an-SF specific school . . .<< I am sure that they aren't the only specific unit to be called out then, as all of them have made mistakes. Now that I think of it, it is best to point out others failures so maybe it can save lives (they are Americans, their lives are very important... who gives a crap if it offends the SEALs). Horsesoldier, I'll be honest. My main sources are books and websites (this one and a SEAL website being the only ones)...but in everything I have read, SEALs are looked upon highly.

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>>btw, book's are selective, for instance do you think Dick Couch would write anything negative about the SEAL's? or that NAVSPECWAR would allow anyone access to the team's would put in the bad stuff?<< Good point...but I read more than just SEAL books. I am interested in all SOF, and in every book I have come across (except Not a Good Day to Die), SEALs are looked highly upon. Mough, you are the expert. How do you view SEALs? Are they tactically incompetent? Are the unproffesional? What are your thoughts on the issue (Obviously not looking for any specifics, but you are in the SOF realm...correct?) The reason I am concerned about this is because I really want to be a SEAL...I mean, I even work my a** off to build the cardio and endurance I will need for BUD/S (ever tried to do a burpee/sprint pyramid in a public place? You should have seen some of the looks I got :)...but if the SEALs are truly an unprofessional group, then why is BUD/S so difficult and the drop out rates so high? It would seem to me that if you could make it through BUD/S, then you are most likely a smart/proffesional/tough guy who should succeed. Am I wrong?

I've never met a SEAL. I did meet quite a few SF NCOs in the '80's since the All American Airplane Gang sometimes did aggressor duty for the Q-course and SERE. Their impressions? SEALs are harder than woodpecker lips but they can't navigate, they use a rifle like a bullet hose, and they think that said bullet hose equals cover. Maybe that's changed in the past 20 years. Maybe it was never true to begin with. However, the NCO instructors saying this had CIB's, SF combat patches, and, sometimes, and photos of themselves with Montagnards. Do I think they knew what they were talking about. Well, you know, Montagnard bracelets.....

>>I've never met a SEAL. I did meet quite a few SF NCOs in the '80's since the All American Airplane Gang sometimes did aggressor duty for the Q-course and SERE. Their impressions? SEALs are harder than woodpecker lips but they can't navigate, they use a rifle like a bullet hose, and they think that said bullet hose equals cover.<< All of this may be true, but I have read an article that qouted a higher-up in NAVSPECWAR that said that SEALs will now focus almost all of their efforts (as in, pre-deployment training) on land warfare and CQB due to their recent experiences in Afghanistan and Iraq...so maybe their land warfare skills will improve, if they haven't already. >>However, the NCO instructors saying this had CIB's, SF combat patches, and, sometimes, and photos of themselves with Montagnards. Do I think they knew what they were talking about. Well, you know, Montagnard bracelets..... << Alot of SEALs have similar qualifications, so I don't think that it makes the SF NCO's qualified experts on SEALs. As a side note...I have read (yes...I said read. Kind of embarrasing since I have no real world experience to speak from...I've never met an operator of any kind) several books where SEALs have defeated SF in exercises (The Warrior Soul and Rogue Warrior come to mind). Any idea how often they go head to head? It just seems to me that all of this back-biting is immature (I am sure that the SEALs do it too). I think that the way it should work would be to have all of the SOCOM forces sharing their experiences/expertise in certain areas to each other to help the whole group. Who knows, it might even save some lives down the road if it worked like this.

I'll take this bit by bit lad, to make it easier on everyone. >>Mough, you are the expert. How do you view SEALs? Are they tactically incompetent? Are the unproffesional? What are your thoughts on the issue (Obviously not looking for any specifics, but you are in the SOF realm...correct?)>> no one is really an expert on anything, just some people know a bit more then other's on certain thing's ;), so I'll use what little extra knowlage I have to go through this, are they Tactically incompetent?......my view is no, the problem is, SEAL's like to have 1 foot in the water as they say, it's their enviroment,you put a SEAL in the mountain's and he'll usually do well, but you put one in a maritime enviroment and he'll excell, it's what they do beat, sometime though ,their head shed forget that and in their rush to get a run onto the field during the "game" they try to do thing's that are not really for them, for instance the taking of the Iraqi oil terminal's at the start of OIF, was a classic naval special warfare mission carried out like it should be, while some of the deep mission's in A-stan have not been as great, remember SEAL's are not a long range recce unit, especially on foot, it's just not them, yet some in NAVSPECWAR thought that they should have equal status up in the hill's, with CAG and the SF unit's much more capable in that, plus sometime's the SEAL's had the wrong type of fitness for the high altitude, it's nice looking like a men's health cover guy at sea level, but at 3,000 metres all that muscle take's up precious energy and oxygen, but on a more positive note, they do seem to be improving thing's now, more mountain training, languages, and more longer range foot mobility training with the thing SEAL's hate most, pack's ;), I think you'll see a slightly different SEAL community emerge over the next while, it'll be less about the high profile HSLD cool stuff, and more about the basic's of spec op warfare, why use C4 to break a nut when a small hammer will do. about what it is I do for a living.....I'm a soldier. that's what I do, just like ever other guy in the military, I serve, I'm not different, or better, make of that what you want. >> The reason I am concerned about this is because I really want to be a SEAL...I mean, I even work my a** off to build the cardio and endurance I will need for BUD/S (ever tried to do a burpee/sprint pyramid in a public place? You should have seen some of the looks I got :)...but if the SEALs are truly an unprofessional group, then why is BUD/S so difficult and the drop out rates so high? It would seem to me that if you could make it through BUD/S, then you are most likely a smart/proffesional/tough guy who should succeed. Am I wrong?<< keep up the work kid, the SEAL's are something that you should aspire to join, just don't take all the myth's to heart, it's partly the reason the BUD/S drop out rate is high, it's the Same for the SAS, some guy's turn up for selection with their heads full of cool kit, and storming embassies or rescuing people from terrorists, and spending Day's in exotic location's, when reality hit's them, during selection, it's cold, hard, tiring repetative WORK, DAY in DAY out, you will not be driving Aston Martins like Bond or laying every attractive women in the World, most of the time, you'll be in some bumble Fu.ck of a Country where it's either too hot or cold, where the local's don't like you, and many people are trying their best to kill you, working with people from the local militaries, who you would not turn your back on for a minute, GOP, just be clear on why you want this, if it's because you think you'll be bombing around the Afghan desert's in a humvee, or swimming up on some tropical beach in a LAR V, the SEAL's might not be for you, but on the other hand, swimming up on some crappy beach in freezing water, with a lovely assortment of mines floating by to take a topographic is your thing or being waist high in snow on a mountain with people shooting at you is a worthwhile vocation, then maybe they are ;) your choice kid

Been meaning to ask you this for a while: Is the 82nd called "All-American" for: (a) Being the first division to drop the old county/state based recruiting (sometime during or after WWI)? or, (b) For some sports-related reason that will completely go over my foreign head? Worchester had told me the explanation sometime ago, but I cant find the thread anymore. You seemed the easiest reference. thanks in advance.

>>keep up the work kid, the SEAL's are something that you should aspire to join, just don't take all the myth's to heart, it's partly the reason the BUD/S drop out rate is high, it's the Same for the SAS, some guy's turn up for selection with their heads full of cool kit, and storming embassies or rescuing people from terrorists, and spending Day's in exotic location's, when reality hit's them, during selection, it's cold, hard, tiring repetative WORK, DAY in DAY out<< I am completely aware of this...of course, never personally experienced it. >>most of the time, you'll be in some bumble Fu.ck of a Country where it's either too hot or cold, where the local's don't like you, and many people are trying their best to kill you, working with people from the local militaries, who you would not turn your back on for a minute,<< Also aware of this. >>GOP, just be clear on why you want this, if it's because you think you'll be bombing around the Afghan desert's in a humvee, or swimming up on some tropical beach in a LAR V, the SEAL's might not be for you,<< I have never had this impression. >>swimming up on some crappy beach in freezing water, with a lovely assortment of mines floating by to take a topographic is your thing or being waist high in snow on a mountain with people shooting at you is a worthwhile vocation, then maybe they are ;)<< More realistic version :) The reason I want this, is simple. Alot of guys (even on this forum, like Old Grunt) think that my reasons aren't enough, but I know in my heart they are (OK, that one sounded a little too dramatic :). The reason I want to be a SEAL is because I have always wanted to be in SOCOM. Not for the Hollywood type stuff (never happens), not for the macho/tough guy stuff (I have nothing to prove to anyone...I wouldn't want anyone to know I was a operator anyway), and not for the pay (lame attempt at humor here :), but because I want to serve my country in the best way possible. SEALs/SOF are in high-demand right now, they need guys like me who are willing to go through hell, to save our democracy and stand up for our freedom. On top of that, you have the ability to be around a very professional group of guys who know what they are doing when the crap hits the fan. Another reason (I have several) is because I loved to be challenged, and I love physical fitness. I also think the experience I will gain from it will help me in life (once out of the military), because I will have the confidence to make fast and smart decisions, and I will always be able to look back when things get rough and say "I have been through much worse, I can handle this". Throw on top of that the fact that the thought of running, swimming, shooting, and blowing things up all in the name of your country sounds like fun...and you have the motivation/desire to become a SEAL. May not sound like enough to you, but I know that I have the motivation, determination, and mental toughness to make it through. I don't know how we got on the topic of why I want to be a SEAL, but anyway...there you have it :) So, back to the questions...are the SEALs profecient at what they do. Also, I'll go ahead and tell you that I don't buy any of the myths about any SOF force...they all are humans and they all fail occasionally.

So, back to the questions...are the SEALs profecient at what they do.< yes

btw Gop, beware of the 10%'ers, you get them even in the SEAL's