AJ, Thanks for the response and for sticking on the subject without trying to make cultural differences out to be an inherent flaw. [snip] DropShort and Grenadier Voltigeur, Correct me if I'm misrepresenting your argument, but your contentions seem to be that any videos are inherently for glorification purpose. Do you have evidence to back this up? Are there overt messages that state "war is a game, play hard!" or anything akin to that? Additionally, you seem to make out cultural differences to be an inherhent flaw for Americans. For example, the recent video that shows UK soldiers beating detained Iraqi youth while the cameramen with his inherently evil video camera is emoting gleefully about how the "naughty little boys" deserved it. If he hadn't had that gleeful monologue, similar to the "immature" high fiving of pilots who were happy to complete their mission and return safe, would that somehow make the incident mature? I don't mention this incident to try and start an escalation war of dueling incidents, but solely to demonstrate that you have seized upon incidents that either have nothing to do with professionalism and/or aren't necessarily representative. I don't see the Basra incident as official policy nor as representative; rather, it is representative of the the fact that you will always have some bad apples in every bunch and that a single data point doesn't make a trend.

Non army is protected from the abuses of its men. For example, Henri Poncet, the general commanding the French troops in Ivory Coast, have been remote from commande because of the physical elimination of an Ivorian prisonner by French soldiers. I talk about the global behaviour of the soldiers in an army. When I read your posts, I see that you take the arguments and you put them in question, asking for evidences. But the Marines video is a self-sufficient evidence. It just epitomizes a cultural trend. Believe me, you will never see such videos with the Royal Marines or the Infanterie de Marine. It is not decent. By the way, the "trigger happy" mentality in the U.S. Army is a well know fact. About the pilots, I guess that British or French pilots were as happy as the U.S. pilots to have succeed their missions and to be back safe. Though they didn't boasting about themselves like the U.S. did. The Tom Cruise touch maybe?

"By the way, the "trigger happy" mentality in the U.S. Army is a well know fact." - GV No it isnt, it is a wide spread misconception, it is not the norm, as Shek has explained the instances of "Trigger Happy" behaviour is almost always from non combat arms personnel put in a situation where there training did not give them the ability or confidence level to deal with the situation in a more controlled manner. This is being addressed. And as I say it is not the norm, you just dont hear about teh instances where the situations were diffused without shots fired or the engagement ended quickly and with minimal rounds fired. Once again this thread is turning into a "How can we make ourselves feel superior to the US" thread. Are People really that envious of the US?

>>Isn't atitude dependent to maturity?<< Nope. Attitude is personality, not maturity...wheras maturity is more inline with a persons Moral Fiber in my opinion...just because some guys in a warzone want to have fun, that doensn't mean that they are immature (remember, humor/fun is the best remedy to many things)...it just means that they are trying to have fun (pretty simple, huh). If the British act like this during their deployments, then I would guess that they are miserable when they are called up. I wouldn't want to be in the desert (or wherever) for 12+ months with a bunch of tight-arse guys like they seem to be. I would guess that the combat arms branch of the British military is a little more agressive and therefore would probably be more willing to committ the cardinal sin of high-fiving one another after combat (and God forbid, listening to heavy metal music).

Regardless of the whether the proclivities of the U.S troopers to search for the perfect “kodak moment” is a cultural trait, episodes such as this should not be dismissed out of hand. The Brits have great experience in COIN warfare and if they’re belly-aching (as they clearly are in several high profile cases) then something is wrong, particularly if it is coming from the SAS quarter. The trick is never to get enough “boots on the ground”, as Vietnam showed, because one has to field something to the order of 10x vis-à-vis the number of insurgents, but rather to have enough “eyes and ears” among the populace. Real men do talk “cultural sensitivity” and “hearts and minds”- because it wins wars. Aside from the secular Baathists, who were overthrown, I don’t see any segment of the population that the U.S can now rely on long term. The Sunni are hostile. The es are malleable now but the moments things go south in Iran, they’ll be hostile. The Kurds are in the north, and removed from the hot zone- nor can an major concession be given to them because of Turkey (a U.S NATO ally). So if the U.S is to succeed (which it will have to), it will have to spawn its own breed of “Lawrence of Arabias” who know the language, are steeped in the culture and are able to forge alliances.

You're joking, but between being tight-arse and being a boasting-about-shooting-at-random guy who turn war in a music-video or glorifies himself for escaping the iraqi airdefence of death (certainly one of the best in the kebab eating countries), there's a world.

Believe me, you will never see such videos with the Royal Marines or the Infanterie de Marine. It is not decent. Never say never. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4475034.stm Do you think the above is decent? Homemade videos are a product of technological advances and a tech savvy generation that knows how to take digital video and digital stills and integrate them with MP3 files to make a professional video in a matter of hours. It is not an American thing or a British thing or a French thing - it is a tech savvy generation thing that knows no international boundaries. Also, how do you contrast homemade videos with official promotional videos used for recruiting? http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/photo_gallery_ops_land.htm Out of curiosity, how old are you? I am wondering if this is just a generational gap issue.

>>You're joking, but between being tight-arse and being a boasting-about-shooting-at-random guy who turn war in a music-video or glorifies himself for escaping the iraqi airdefence of death (certainly one of the best in the kebab eating countries), there's a world.<< Well, listen...the facts are this (listen closely :)...guys will be guys. I am not going to change my personality because I am going to war. If I want to joke around with my squad, then I will joke around with my squad. If I want to high five and make my own video (with Heavy metal music), then I will. I will do what I want as long as it is not against the rules...and I will also do my job. I will say that the sins that our guys have committed (giving high-fives and making a video) certainly does not make them unprofessional, it makes them 20 year old kids. Unprofessional would be the purposeful killing of innocent civilians and disobeying orders, just to name a few...we haven't done this, and if we have, then the guys who have done it are no longer in the military. If you think we are unprofessional as people, then who really cares...our Soldiers may think that the Brits are a bunch of boring tightwads...but as Soldiers/Sailors/Airmen/Marines, then I would say without a doubt that we are very professional and profecient. If you disagree, then I would ask that you keep a close eye on Operation Swarmer that is going down as we speak...this will give you an idea of how professional we are.

GV (and DS), Have you actually listened to the lyrics? It's Alice in Chains' "Rooster." If you actually listen to the lyrics and want to base your opinion solely on the soundtrack that accompanies the video, then you'll find that it doesn't make war sound fun nor glamorous. The soldier who is singing talks about his best friend dying, being away from family, and his struggle to survive. That's about as real and introspective as it gets. Also, there's considerable debate over how to categorize Alice in Chains, and heavy metal isn't the best title. They are typically referred to as grunge, although that refers more to the fact that they originated out of Seattle. They played on alternative and rock stations here in the US - I can't recall whether they got much air time on pop stations. In any event, my point is that your "self-evident" observation misses the mark badly, in addition to your attempt to make a trend out of a single observation (as an experiment, take a piece of paper, draw two axes, and then put a single point on the graph - now, analyze what the trend line is - you can't, because you need at least another point to even develop a line, and once you actually add observations, then you can't just take two or three points, you must use all points to form your trend line).

Alice In Chains - Rooster Lyrics Ain't found a way to kill me yet Eyes burn with stinging sweat Seems every path leads me to nowhere Wife and kids household pet Army green was no safe bet The bullets scream to me from somewhere Here they come to snuff the rooster Yeah here come the rooster, yeah You know he ain't gonna die No, no, no, ya know he ain't gonna die Walkin' tall machine gun man They spit on me in my home land Gloria sent me pictures of my boy Got my pills 'gainst mosquito death My buddy's breathin' his dyin' breath Oh god please won't you help me make it through Here they come to snuff the rooster Yeah here come the rooster, yeah You know he ain't gonna die No, no, no ya know he ain't gonna die

This thread makes for some interesting reading - but I think the real question which begs an answer, is why does the American military have a negative trigger-happy stereotype, and is America making the correct moves to end this stereotype? Speaking personally, I see more things concerning the American military which make me cringe, than which impress me. Although this does not mean the American military as a whole is cringe-making. If I see a video from Iraq showing some soldiers dancing along to the "Is this the way to Amarillo" song, I see an image portraying soldiers relaxing and having a laugh in their down time. However if I see a video of a tank driving over an old taxi, before reducing an empty building to rubble followed by supposodly professional soldiers dancing for joy high-fiving each other, I see an image portraying immaturity, which enforces the college kids given guns stereotype for me. This does not mean American soldiers are immature, or just out to get their college fees payed, however for an outsider looking in, that is what you see. There are also other sources available than internet videos of course. There is also the mass-media, word-of-mouth, and published personal accounts etc. In these sources there are some very positive examples showing the professional standards of the American military, an example I recently read being "We Were Soldiers, and Young". I would say this is a positive source, where factual actions and errors are shown and analysed. This is not saying there was no high-fiving, however it is a surplus point with no real bearing on what actually happened. Unfortunately, to me there seem to be far more negative sources on the American military available than there are positive sources. My only real memory of personally meeting American servicemen consisted of me taking the piss out of one, for being a light weight and drunk, and then my falling off my chait (drunk). If there was an immature idiot, it was me. When you rarely get the chance to meet with the people though, and see more negative sources than good, stereotypes will doubtless be bad.