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Subject: Where Oil Turns Into Hate
SYSOP    1/28/2013 6:02:29 AM
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Toryu88    Overlooking the religious aspect   1/29/2013 3:56:07 PM
While the article ties the the history hatred between Islam and the West together, it overlooks the 700 lb gorilla in the room.  The nature of Islam itself.  Mohammed was a brigand and con-man, the L. Ron Hubbard or Jim Baker of his day.
He made up a religion out of whole cloth provided by other pre-exiting religions, both pagan and Judeo-Christian.  It was the err of the Jews to reject him first and Islam has had a hard-on for them ever since.  Islam is first a foremost a retrograde religion in that it teachs not love, but only subservience.  That is what the name means, submission and obedience.  Mohammed's brillinace besides being able to put the move on underaged girls was to convince his followers to become servile to an unseen god and oh by the way, that he spoke for him.  He was his messenger.  Of course it helped that the rules said anyone who didn't believe could be killed, their women raped, and their property stolen, not necessarily in that order.  The politification of the so-called religion came early demanding that unbelievers could exist side by side with muslims but at a price.  The Nazis had nothing over the Muslims when it came to putting Jews or other Infidels in their place.  Oh, yeah they did give a pass to "people of the book" meaning Jews and Christians, but not much, they were still on the same unclean list as dogs, feces, urine and menstruating women, but hey they were not killed outright until later.  No so with pagans like the Hindus and Buddhists.  Ah...progress.    My point is there are no radical Muslims, only good and non practicing Muslims who are kill meat for their breathren too.  By good muslims most people erroniously say Radical. No, a good Muslim follows the Surah as an example of how to live, its the history of Mohammed's life, but abridged, it probably does not go into gory details of him taking his son-in-laws wife to bed.  But hey, he was the Messenger.  But what DID he do?  He sanctioned killing people who criticized him, he assassinated people, he beheaded people, he said it was okay to lie to Infidels in the advancement of Islam...the end justified everything.  Our politicians act as if they never learned to rad.  It is pretty obvious that you cant' trust any of the members of the Islamic faith.  They have amply demonstrated that.  Of course there are probably the ruling class who talk the Islamic talk, they just don't believe it, how could you if you were educated past the second grade?  Know why the Temple of the Mount is so important?  Its where Mohammed landed or more precisely his magic white donkey, when it leapt from Mecca to Jerusalem, then jumped up into Heaven for a Messenger's night out.  He met with Jesus, Moses, Abraham and sundry other lesser prophets who all high fived him and told him how much better a job he was doing with his religion than they had with theirs. Of course all this was later reported by Mohammed to his scribe, since he was illiterate, but quite the story teller.  So from then on and forever the Temple Mount has been important to them. 
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Toryu88    Overlooking the religious aspect   1/29/2013 4:13:06 PM

Funny, the last place I woke up from a drunk doesn't seem to
be important to anyone, but then I don't hangout with illiterate camel riding
rapists and murderers either. If you care to read a bit read some of the
descriptions of Islamic heaven. It sounds a lot like any college town in the
US. Green grass, running water, hot and cold running women...just about
everything that the desert of Saudi Arabia was not. Go figure. I recall reading
that one of the things that set off one of Al Queda's founders was how much
time and energy Americans lavish on their yards. Kind of sounds like the guy
never advanced past the maturity level of a 10 year old...jealousy pure and
simple. We have most cases the Muslims don't. Maybe they should have
tried harder to conquer the nice places of the world and kept them...oh yeah,
they tried and they couldn't. They ended up with where they are now, which at
one time with the excpetion of Saudi itself were all Christian. Remember the
extent of the Eastern and Western Roman Empires and that it was Christian?
Maybe the West should decide to take all their former property back and use the
old Muslim edict, convert or perish, or pay us a hefty Dimmi tax to live with
us, and by the way, you cannot worship openly, rebuild your mosques or repair
them. It might take a few centuries, but we could probably do the same thing to
them as they did the the once christian majorities that existed in what they call
muslim countries today.



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Reactive       1/29/2013 7:05:34 PM
 "As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace.  If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.  But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town.  But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.  But these instructions apply only to distant towns, not to the towns of nations nearby.  "As for the towns of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as a special possession, destroy every living thing in them.  You must completely destroy the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, just as the LORD your God has commanded you.  This will keep the people of the land from teaching you their detestable customs in the worship of their gods, which would cause you to sin deeply against the LORD your God."      Deuteronomy 20:10-18 NLT
    "They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings - Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba - died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho."

    "Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."   Numbers 31:7-18 NLT 
   "If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her."   Deuteronomy 22:28-29
 "While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was discovered gathering wood on the Sabbath day.  Those who caught him at it brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly.  But they kept him in custody, for there was no clear decision as to what should be done with him.  Then the Lord said to Moses, "This man shall be put to death; let the whole community stone him outside the camp." So the whole community led him outside the camp and stoned him to death as the Lord had commanded Moses."   Numbers 15:32-36 NAB
     As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace.  If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.  But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town.  When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town.  But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder.  You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
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Reactive       1/29/2013 7:13:57 PM

 "When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house.  But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb.  After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife.  However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion." (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

    They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.   (Judges 5:30 NAB)
     When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.   (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT
    So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children.  "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin."  Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

    The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives.  But there were not enough women for all of them.  The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel.  So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead?  There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever.  But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

    Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem.  They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards.  When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife!  And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding.  Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'"  So the men of Benjamin did as they were told.  They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance.  Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them.  So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

 (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
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Reactive       1/29/2013 7:18:15 PM
And that's omitting several hundred others that also justify rape, pillage, murder, human sacrifice, genocide, barbarism, conquest, enslavement etc etc. 
Now please explain how the Bible doesn't justify exactly the same sort of behaviour you suggest is unique to Islam. 
Good luck ; )  
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Reactive       1/29/2013 7:24:45 PM
A few more examples for you:

1) Capital Punishment Crimes:


Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

    Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)


Kill Witches

    You should not let a sorceress live.  (Exodus 22:17 NAB)


Kill Homosexuals
    "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."  (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)


Kill Fortunetellers

    A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.  (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)


Death for Hitting Dad

    Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.  (Exodus 21:15 NAB)


...Death for Cursing Parents

    1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness.  (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

    2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death.  They are guilty of a capital offense.  (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)


Death for Adultery

    If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.  (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)


Death for Fornication

    A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.  (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)


Death to Followers of Other Religions

    Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.  (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

  Kill Nonbelievers

    They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.  (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)


Kill False Prophets

    If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord."  When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.  (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)


Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

    Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods.  In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully.  If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.  Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it.  Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God.  That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.  Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction.  Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you.  He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors.  "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."  (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)


Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

    But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house.  Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.  (Deuteronomy  22:20-21 NAB)

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Reactive       1/29/2013 7:25:41 PM

Kill Followers of Other Religions.

    1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.  Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.  You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.  And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.  (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)


    2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden.  When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.  (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)


Death for Blasphemy

    One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men.  During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name.  So the man was brought to Moses for judgment.  His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan.  They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear.  Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head.  Then let the entire community stone him to death.  Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished.  Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel.  Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die.  (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)


Kill False Prophets

    1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles,  and the predicted signs or miracles take place.  If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them.  The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul.  Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone.  Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him.  The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt.  Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you.  (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)


    2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.'  You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?'  If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message.  That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared.  (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

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Sty0pa       1/30/2013 4:01:47 PM
Interesting commentary, Reactive.
Unfortunately, in your effort to draw an equivalence between Christianity and Islam, you missed a couple of points:
1) every quote of yours comes from the first 5 books of the bible.  Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy.  Essentially, you're quoting the TORAH to us, ie the Jewish holy book.
So you're quoting Judaic scripture to condemn Christianity.  In the Christian faith, the Old Testament amounts to biblical history.
 Notice the first 5 letters of C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N. 
 To quote OT law in condemnation of a religion that derived from the individual whose life is (accurately or not) chronicled in the New Testament is either ignorant or disingenuous, your choice.  Jesus himself told his followers to adhere to the old law, but his death on the cross signalled an end to the old law and the beginning of the new.  If you need scriptural reference, Hebrews (you know, in the NEW TESTAMENT):
"8...Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more." 13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."
2) Almost more significant: The Reformation.  I have NO argument with the assertion that Christianity was a fairly brutal religion for a part of it's first 1500 years (comparable to pretty much any other faith/culture at that time - compare Christianity's violent phase with that of various pagan religions or Islam). It should be mentioned, however, any scholar will tell you that at least the first 200-300 years Christians were notably NON violent, spectacularly uncharacteristic in the Ancient world.  Heck, some Romans thought their persistent pacifism was almost creepy.  But you're right, for a while, they were absolutely violent, intolerant, and could be amazingly cruel.
However, Christianity GREW UP.  In the brutality of the 30 Years War, and the in various violent tides of Religious zeal that splattered Europe in blood from Spain to St Petersburg, Humanism (and, ironically, the seed of our modern, secular, West) was born.   Islam has never been forced to look at itself and resolve its internal contradictions, nor does it seem that the bulk of their adherents been de-radicalized.  Islam has always had a scapegoat, that they were 'persecuted' by Christianity...which is feeble; it only makes sense if you define "persecution" as "failed to immediately convert to Islam".  Charles Martel fought Muslim armies in France, not Egypt.  The Crusades - widely reviled as an 'example' of the barbarism committed against Muslims - were a COUNTERATTACK.  Jerusalem was Christian before it was taken by Islam, as was Constantinople.  Vienna only barely avoided a similar fate twice.  
Christianity's only "fault" here is in refusing to submit.
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Sty0pa       1/30/2013 4:02:02 PM
Drawing equivalence between Islam and Christianity only works if one compares modern Islam with a version of Christianity that blew out FIVE CENTURIES ago.  The tiny rind of Christian fanatics (acknowledged to be whacko and openly mocked/despised by the overwhelming bulk of Christians) is nothing in comparison to the broad and mainstream acceptance of violence across Islam.  It's not universal, certainly; there are thoughtful, intelligent, and humanist Muslims all over the world, unfortunately they are generally only amongst the wealthiest and most cosmopolitan minorities.  Radicalism in Christianity means a fringe, in Islam (sadly) it's pretty much the norm across great demographic swaths of adherents.
The two faiths simply don't compare.  Drawing equivalence is not accidental; either one must willingly swallow Islamic propaganda or deliberately and disingenuously misrepresent the facts.  That may be self-justifyingly convenient within certain radicalized circles, but there's no reason to tolerate it in an intellectually honest forum.
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Reactive       1/31/2013 6:40:49 AM
But you see I wasn't drawing equivalence - I was making one point and one point alone, independently of "violent" or "mature" phases of religion, there is ADEQUATE justification should one look for it!
And that is the same with Islam - there is ADEQUATE justification for acts of subjugation - you could also argue that this theme is far stronger than in Christianity - and you would be correct - but given the OT contains passages that we are supposed to consider actions (and the direct word) of God (who is not disowned and remains part of the Holy Trinity) there is plenty to draw from if, say, you plan on conquering and subjugating say, the Americas.  
The nature of Jesus as largely pacifist, and the message of peaceful martyrdom is one that you can't directly equate with Muhammad in terms of overriding message, that I agree with - you could say the "character" of the religions is different - but again, the emphasis has (as you say) shifted numerous times with the OT and Jesus vying for position in terms of message - whatever the situation - you could certainly say that there is ample justification (should you seek to find it in scripture) for believing in a God that is cruel, warlike, jealous and unforgiving - you can apply that message as you see fit. 
My point to Toryu88 was that his views on Islam are somewhat hypocritical coming from a culture that waged hundreds of years of near-continual religious warfare - I honestly don't think anyone has ever needed much religious justification for forced-conversion, in any case, even if Jesus represents peaceful salvation (and you completely ignore the OT) it falls on his "flock" to help non-believers see the light, as it were - it's possible to wage bloody campaigns in the name of bringing peace and light to the heathens.  
Lastly - you are talking about religious structures (or should be) what is most important is the nature of the message transmitted to the masses through the religious institutions - it's a RECENT thing that people choose their own "way" through faith - not until several centuries after Tyndale and others across Europe translated the Bible into a form that the lay people could actually read and other developments in science undercut certain tenets of faith did the influence of the various major denominations recede. The same is true for Islam - it's still in the Imam's and Clerics that control the message - it's still a "fundamental" religion that exists mainly in societies that are relatively undeveloped with a (generally) theocratic or dictatorial nature - those countries will (eventually) modernise, liberalise, and the message will change, the prevalence of faith will no longer be unquestioned - there'll be a moderation in other words of what seems at the moment to be a "fundamentalist" faith that mirrors the changes in those societies - you can already see it in the west - and for all the fear of the Islamification of western democracy I feel very strongly that it is western-democracy and consumerism that will in fact undermine the power of Islam - as it has done with every other ideology and religion it has successfully undermined.
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