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Subject: ROCN's plan to build twin-hull corvettes.
YelliChink    4/18/2011 4:06:37 PM
http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/sunponyboy-IDF/article?mid=29820&prev=29821&next=29818&l=a&fid=14 For some reason, some Australian ship designer may have involved in this.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       4/27/2011 10:54:55 PM
Yellichink, you can call me a racist, a leftist and whatever else you like but that isn't going to change the facts of this matter. It is a lack of commitment by the Taiwanese people, through the actions of their elected representatives, to do what is necessary to defend themselves. Take this article from the Taiwanese central news agency:
 
"U.S. SUGGESTS TAIWAN RAISE DEFENSE BUDGET TO 3.5% OF GDP: PAPER"
 
>>
 
The article makes it abundantly clear that the US has encouraged Taiwan to spend more of it's own money on defence, but the KMT dominated legislature of mid last decade blocked the arms packages that the US offered Taiwan. This article to the US Congress tells a similar story, describing how the Taiwanese knocked back the substantial arms sales offerred by the Bush administration and how the Pentagon has questioned the seriousness of Taiwan's commitment to it's own defence.
 
The fact is that since the end of single party rule Taiwanese defence expenditure dropped to by an order of magnitude of around 40%, i.e. when the Taiwanese People were put in charge they started to raise the white flag. In contrast, democratic Israel spends about 6.5% of GDP on defence ... that means that they still spend 5% of their own money with the consent of the People. That is because the Israeli people have spine and commitment, whereas on the evidence Taiwanese people don't. 
 
What's more, the US spends about 3.5%, much of which would be dedicated to saving your sorry friggin arses. My question is, if you aren't prepared to make at least the same commitment, why should the US jepardise it's relationship with the most important emerging nation in the World for your sake?
 
If you had any brains and character, you would accept this reality and start pushing for change, rather than just making these stupid excuses.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       4/27/2011 11:15:39 PM
The link to the congressional paper that I posted last time didn't work, so here it is again.

>>
 
The about 5% Israeli home funded defence expenditure figure that I quoted previously is based on $3 billion dollars annual military aid from the US to Israel (YC's figure) being about 1.3% of Israeli GDP, taken from the 6.5% or so of Israeli GDP they spend on defence. I'm not sure if it is exactly right, their defence expenditure is pretty opaque, but it gives and order of magnitude representation that they are making
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Text got lost ... arrgh.    4/27/2011 11:16:50 PM
... a much bigger contribution to their own defence than the Taiwanese are.
 
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YelliChink       4/27/2011 11:43:18 PM

Yellichink, you can call me a racist, a leftist and whatever else you like but that isn't going to change the facts of this matter. It is a lack of commitment by the Taiwanese people, through the actions of their elected representatives, to do what is necessary to defend themselves. Take this article from the Taiwanese central news agency:

 

"U.S. SUGGESTS TAIWAN RAISE DEFENSE BUDGET TO 3.5% OF GDP: PAPER"

 

Whatever correct adjective or noun I use on you doesn't change the fact that you are spineless.
 
Now off to comparison with Israel. Until a few years ago, Israel receive not only military aid ($3 Billion annually) but also economic aid just about the same order.  We receive zip, zero, nada. Besides, all our technology are not for sale, which means that we have to absorb all the development cost. That is because some components we used in our domestic weapons are also from FMS or are on USDOS controlled material list.
 
And historically, the US has tried to get us buy Israeli. That's just how powerful AIPAC was in the old days. Not that is a bad thing. The Israeli-South African nuke project actually has a third partner. I believe even having some Kfir is better than keeping running F-104 by early 80s, and we did copied their missiles for our own use.
 
On the other hand, Israelis are allowed to keep nukes and very large rockets, while Americans have actively prevented us from developing those. So why bother, really? Just revealed yesterday in Taiwan is the domestic MRBM program that is now dormant under US pressure, which is the result of pressure from Beijing. If we can't do things our way, then why even take some US think tank's advice and piss it to the military-industrial complex? What they see while preaching for defense expenditure is pure dollar sign, not OUR actual defense needs. And don't tell me that if we spend enough the subs can magically be built. Not even Australia tried this route without first going for a partner from Sweden who provide data, design and layout as basis for Collins. Now who's gonna be that partner for Taiwan?
 
Only when the US keeps the promise to defend Taiwan, can the US morally dictate our defense strategy the way it currently is. Otherwise, they are just making us weak and preparing us to be fed to the commies. If the former is true then we don't really need to spend on essential, but not stockpile; if the later is true, then no amount of spending can reverse the inevitable, just pissing money away on useless things that are bound to be targets.
 
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YelliChink       4/27/2011 11:46:24 PM

Only when the US keeps the promise to defend Taiwan, can the US morally dictate our defense strategy the way it currently is. Otherwise, they are just making us weak and preparing us to be fed to the commies. If the former is true then we only really need to spend on essential, but not stockpile; if the later is true, then no amount of spending can reverse the inevitable, just pissing money away on useless things that are bound to be targets.


Fixed.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       4/28/2011 11:15:19 PM
 
Only when the US keeps the promise to defend Taiwan, can the US morally dictate our defense strategy the way it currently is. Otherwise, they are just making us weak and preparing us to be fed to the commies. If the former is true then we don't really need to spend on essential, but not stockpile; if the later is true, then no amount of spending can reverse the inevitable, just pissing money away on useless things that are bound to be targets.
 
That pretty much sums up the issue at stake here doesn't it, you think that if the US is there to look after you then you don't need to reach into your own pockets to contribute. Well let me explain to you, it is not ok for you to spend just enough to survive until the US and other free nations come to save your arses. Every platform that you don't provide for your own defence is one that somebody else has to. That impacts on military planning and increases budgets for those allied nations - especially the US, and can affect the operational capacity of those nations to win wars if they are engaged in more than just a conflict to save Taiwan from it's own neglect.
 
Even worse, for every Taiwanese platform that isn't provided and put in harms way, an allied one is. What that means is that your failure to provide for yourselves could potentially get US and allied service personal who would otherwise not need to be deployed, killed.
 
It is an appallingly cowardly, disrespecful and stingy attitude that I see amongst many citizens of US allies, including Australia, though Taiwan is one of the worst examples because it is one of those for whom the immediate threat of drawing the US into a conflict is most stark. Irrespective of US military power, every free nation has an obligation to do whatever it can to provide for it's own defence, with the US only being obliged to help with those capabilities that the nation in question just can't provide. With an attitude like that I wouldn't blame the Americans if they turned around and said "screw you" to Taiwan and let you get rolled up by the PRC as an example to all it's other lax allies that they need to look after themselves. On the balance the Western World would probably be a stronger place for it.
 
Also, you are wrong about the amount of US economic aid to Israel, it has only every been about a third of military aid and the most that both have totalled was about $4 billion in 2003. That would have been about 2% of Israeli GDP at that time, which means Israelis were still forking out well over 4% of their own accord when the aid was at it's peak, and that had to fund ongoing operations that Taiwan doesn't need to. See link.
 
>>
 
On the subject of Israel, the latest population figures for Israelis is about 7.5 million to about 340 million in the Arab League, before we even consider the rest of the Muslim World who might provide resources to fight Israelis. That is about 50 to 1 in favour of the Arabs, which is a similar ratio compared to Taiwan versus China. For all the wars that the Israelis have had to fight they have never required direct US military intervention and they have not enjoyed the protection of 130km of water between them and their enemies. Yet, they have never just bent over and taken it in the arse like you say Taiwan would have to without US protection. I demonstrates a stark difference in national character between the people of the two nations.
 
As for you not being able to resell your gear because it uses US technology, that's your problem. Develop gear for export with entirely your own technology if you want to create an export oriented arms industry. It isn't the US's responsibility to help create a Taiwanese arms industry that competes with it's own.
 
On you being prevented from owning nukes and BM's by the US, the fact of life is that you need balls to stick up to your friends just as much as you do to your enemies, because your friends often have interests that conflict with yours. The Israelis haven't always gotten what they wanted out of the US, the Pershing 2 is the example that springs to mind, but they just went and developed their own missiles instead, and worked with the likes of South Africa to get its nukes.
 
Taiwan could have told the US and the IAEA to f-off when they put the pressure on over the nukes in the 70's as th
 
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YelliChink       4/29/2011 12:39:03 AM

That pretty much sums up the issue at stake here doesn't it, you think that if the US is there to look after you then you don't need to reach into your own pockets to contribute. Well let me explain to you, it is not ok for you to spend just enough to survive until the US and other free nations come to save your arses. Every platform that you don't provide for your own defence is one that somebody else has to. That impacts on military planning and increases budgets for those allied nations - especially the US, and can affect the operational capacity of those nations to win wars if they are engaged in more than just a conflict to save Taiwan from it's own neglect.

 

Even worse, for every Taiwanese platform that isn't provided and put in harms way, an allied one is. What that means is that your failure to provide for yourselves could potentially get US and allied service personal who would otherwise not need to be deployed, killed.

 

It is an appallingly cowardly, disrespecful and stingy attitude that I see amongst many citizens of US allies, including Australia, though Taiwan is one of the worst examples because it is one of those for whom the immediate threat of drawing the US into a conflict is most stark. Irrespective of US military power, every free nation has an obligation to do whatever it can to provide for it's own defence, with the US only being obliged to help with those capabilities that the nation in question just can't provide. With an attitude like that I wouldn't blame the Americans if they turned around and said "screw you" to Taiwan and let you get rolled up by the PRC as an example to all it's other lax allies that they need to look after themselves. On the balance the Western World would probably be a stronger place for it.

 

Also, you are wrong about the amount of US economic aid to Israel, it has only every been about a third of military aid and the most that both have totalled was about $4 billion in 2003. That would have been about 2% of Israeli GDP at that time, which means Israelis were still forking out well over 4% of their own accord when the aid was at it's peak, and that had to fund ongoing operations that Taiwan doesn't need to. See link.

 

>>
 

On the subject of Israel, the latest population figures for Israelis is about 7.5 million to about 340 million in the Arab League, before we even consider the rest of the Muslim World who might provide resources to fight Israelis. That is about 50 to 1 in favour of the Arabs, which is a similar ratio compared to Taiwan versus China. For all the wars that the Israelis have had to fight they have never required direct US military intervention and they have not enjoyed the protection of 130km of water between them and their enemies. Yet, they have never just bent over and taken it in the arse like you say Taiwan would have to without US protection. I demonstrates a stark difference in national character between the people of the two nations.

 

As for you not being able to resell your gear because it uses US technology, that's your problem. Develop gear for export with entirely your own technology if you want to create an export oriented arms industry. It isn't the US's responsibility to help create a Taiwanese arms industry that competes with it's own.

 

On you being prevented from owning nukes and BM's by the US, the fact of life is that you need balls to stick up to your friends just as much as you do to your enemies, because your friends often have interests that conflict with yours. The Israelis haven't always gotten what they wanted out of the US, the Pershing 2 is the example that springs to mind, but they just went and developed their own missiles instead, and worked with the likes of South Africa to get its nukes.

 

Taiwan could have told the US and the IAEA to f-off when they put the pressure on over the nukes in the 70's as the PRC was in no position to invade then and the threat of US nuclear retaliation would have prevented the PRC from using it's own nukes. The US might have put some sanctions on for a while but once a country has nukes there is bugger all that the US can do about it. Look at Pakistan if you want an example about that. Had the Taiwanese demonstrated collective balls to take this action back then, we wouldn't even be having this discussion now becaus
 
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Aussiegunneragain       4/29/2011 2:54:11 AM
You want us to spend more? Tell Obama to sell us sub combat system, Arleigh Burke, F-16C/D and F-35A. Since you are a spineless leftist he might listen to you. The stupidity doesn't start on the island. It starts in Washington DC.

Based on this discussion if he did approve it you would just turn around and say that it is a waste of money, because the "Nanny State" of the US is there to look after Taiwan and that the American's are only concerned with making money off you. It is a circular argument being used by somebody who is only interested in making excuses for his cowardly nation that is only interested in being baby-sat at the expense of others. It is an attitude that isn't much different to that of many long-term welfare recipients who aren't interested in looking after themselves. Be ashamed, very ashamed.



 
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SteveJH       4/29/2011 6:57:34 AM
Nah, they'd want the Aegis system at half price and/or then go and only purchase half a shipload of SM-2 missiles. Its not like they havent done it before afterall.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       4/29/2011 11:39:41 PM

Fair call Steve, I can see that happenning too.

 
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