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Subject: Stephen Smith for Defence
Aussiegunneragain    9/11/2010 2:14:11 AM
JG announced her Cabinet today and Stephen Smith has been moved from Foreign Ministry to Defence, to make way for Rudd. He comes across as a nice enough guy, but what has he ever done? Rudd did his job for him last term and I suspect that he was only there because Rudd knew he would be a pushover. I don't know that he will be tough enough to be effective in Defence. They put Combet, the best prospect for Defence, into Climate Change, which probably indictates the level of priority they are giving to each. Concerning.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       10/4/2010 12:34:41 AM
Volkodav,
 
At the end of the day in 2007 the Australian Government made its AWD decision based on the best information it had available at the time. The F-100 came up as the best buy which would meet our requirements for an AWD which could be easily integrated with our major ally, in a reasonable time and within acceptable risk parameters. The only other option being floated at the time was a large, more expensive, more risky paper ship that was going to take at least 4 years longer to deliver. Stretched ANZACs weren't even on the table, it is as simple as that.
 
I personally find retrospective critisism of a decision not to take a policy option that wasn't available at the time to be idiotic and irritating. Therefore I'm not going to discuss this further with you, come back when you have something sensible to say.
 
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Volkodav       10/6/2010 6:54:52 PM
I personally find retrospective critisism of a decision not to take a policy option that wasn't available at the time to be idiotic and irritating. Therefore I'm not going to discuss this further with you, come back when you have something sensible to say.
 
There were a number of options on the table and the government for better or worse made a choice.  They could have chosen a cheaper less risky options providing the RAN with more hulls earlier while still providing room to grow and evolve the capability using developing technology, they could have chosen a larger more expensive riskier design providing the same number of hulls later but will a much greater margin to grow and evolve the capability, or the could do what they did which is choose the middle of the road option wich was expensive, and lacked the required space and weight to grow and evolve over its planned life cycle.
 
These in a nutshell are the facts and refering to my comments as idiotic and irritation doesn't change the facts.
 
AG one the reasons we continue to make bad procurement decisions for the ADF is we don't make very good use of lessons learned from previous decisions.  Disagreement is good but shutting down decent is counter productive as if all you are willing to listen to is the opinions of those you agree with then you will never be open to any new ideas or potentially better ways to do things.
 
What we should have or should not have done with the FFG upgrade and the AWD procurement are vital to the successful conduct of the eventual ANZAC replacement program.
 
Its not what you think but how you think and how well you incorporate new information in to your thinking.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       10/7/2010 12:41:36 AM

I personally find retrospective critisism of a decision not to take a policy option that wasn't available at the time to be idiotic and irritating. Therefore I'm not going to discuss this further with you, come back when you have something sensible to say.

 

There were a number of options on the table and the government for better or worse made a choice.  They could have chosen a cheaper less risky options providing the RAN with more hulls earlier while still providing room to grow and evolve the capability using developing technology, they could have chosen a larger more expensive riskier design providing the same number of hulls later but will a much greater margin to grow and evolve the capability, or the could do what they did which is choose the middle of the road option wich was expensive, and lacked the required space and weight to grow and evolve over its planned life cycle.

 

These in a nutshell are the facts and refering to my comments as idiotic and irritation doesn't change the facts.

 

AG one the reasons we continue to make bad procurement decisions for the ADF is we don't make very good use of lessons learned from previous decisions.  Disagreement is good but shutting down decent is counter productive as if all you are willing to listen to is the opinions of those you agree with then you will never be open to any new ideas or potentially better ways to do things.

 

What we should have or should not have done with the FFG upgrade and the AWD procurement are vital to the successful conduct of the eventual ANZAC replacement program.

 

Its not what you think but how you think and how well you incorporate new information in to your thinking.


There are no lessons to be learned from hypotheticals based on falsehoods. The simple fact is that their was no PAR equipped, stretched ANZAC option in 2007.
 
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Volkodav       10/7/2010 4:50:27 AM
F218 Mecklenburg-Vorpommernhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Fregatte_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_F218.jpg/300px-Fregatte_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_F218.jpg" width="300" height="225" />
F218 Mecklenburg-Vorpommern
Class overview
Builders: Blohm + Voss
Howaldtswerke
Nordseewerke
Bremer Vulkan
Operators: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Naval_Ensign_of_Germany.svg/22px-Naval_Ensign_of_Germany.svg.png" width="22" height="13" /> German Navy
Preceded by: Hamburg class destroyer
Completed: 4
Active: Brandenburg
Schleswig-Holstein
Bayern
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern
General characteristics
Displacement: 4,900 tonnes
Length: 138.9m
Beam: 16.7m
Draft: 6.8m
Propulsion: CODOG (combined diesel or gas)
2 propeller shafts, controllable pitch propellers
2 MTU 20V 956 TB92 diesel-engines, 8.14 MW each
2 General Electric LM2500 gas turbines, 38 MW each
2 Renk BGS 178 Lo gearboxes
Speed: 29 knots
Range: 4000+ Quote    Reply

Volkodav       10/7/2010 5:43:18 AM
There are no lessons to be learned from hypotheticals based on falsehoods. The simple fact is that their was no PAR equipped, stretched ANZAC option in 2007.
 
I never specified PAR or 2007 these are bounds you unilaterally applied to the discussion after I suggested that, had they been built, the stretched ANZACs when upgraded with CEAFAR / CEAMOUNT, would have provided more hulls of capability for a lower price than the AWDs.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       10/7/2010 6:17:09 AM

There are no lessons to be learned from hypotheticals based on falsehoods. The simple fact is that their was no PAR equipped, stretched ANZAC option in 2007.

 I never specified PAR or 2007 these are bounds you unilaterally applied to the discussion after I suggested that, had they been built, the stretched ANZACs when upgraded with CEAFAR / CEAMOUNT, would have provided more hulls of capability for a lower price than the AWDs.


2007 was when they made the AWD decision so any other date that you specify is irrelevant. Had we decided at that time "lets build a few streched ANZACS instead of AWDs" we wouldn't have been buying AWDs, we would have been buying stretched general purpose frigates which wouldn't have met the requirement for an AWD. CEAFAR wasn't proven at that time so we couldn't have relied on it as an upgrade and we probably still wouldn't have had command facilities What would be the point in that?
 
As for your other post, what is the relevance of posting about another GP frigate (the F-123) and an AWD which is roughly in the same class of the F-100 that you don't like?

 
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Aussie Diggermark 2       10/7/2010 6:18:21 PM

 

These ships are meant to last us up to 40 years but will have hit a developmental wall by or shortly after the last enters service in 2017.  All is not lost however as the ANZAC replacement frigates will incorporate the lessons learnt on the ANZAC upgrade.  They will be larger than the F-100, they will have more space and weight set aside for future use and they will have a volume search radar (CEAFAR or similar) and a phased array horizon search / fire control radar (CEAMOUNT or similar). 


Not to butt in to a rather lengthy discussion, but the AWD's will have a Horizon Search radar capability as well. I believe it will be a phased array radar design (NG's SPQ-9B rings a bell, but I can't remember exactly off hand) and the AWD will most certainly have multiple channels of fire for it's SM-2 and ESSM weapons. 
 
We might have been able to get better than the F-105 AWD, but then again, perhaps not. Not if we wanted to man the things and be able to operate them... I find it a bit much to swallow that these will be "lemons" though. USN isn't getting rid of AEGIS anytime soon, quite the opposite in fact and is ordering more new AB Flight II's with Baseline 7.1 AEGIS systems then we're ordering AWD's...
 
The AWD's will also have about 700t "growth margin in them. I've not a clue what the ANZAC's had, but I sincerely doubt it was much more than that and at least the AWD's are getting the weapons and sensors they need from the "get go" which seems to be the exception rather than the rule with major Australian naval acquisitions...
 
Our ANZAC's needed major upgrades because they've had to adapt to becoming a primary surface combatant when they were never designed for such. Our FFG's needed major upgrades because they were kept far longer than they ever should have been. Hopefully the lessons from these classes ARE employed with the AWD.
 
1. Give them the capabilities they need when they enter service for ALL the likely roles asked of them. Don't purposefully under-gun or under-sensor them as a cost cutting measure. 
 
2. Don't keep them longer than their intended design life...
 

 
 
 
 
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Aussiegunneragain       10/7/2010 7:49:43 PM


 USN isn't getting rid of AEGIS anytime soon, quite the opposite in fact and is ordering more new AB Flight II's with Baseline 7.1 AEGIS systems then we're ordering AWD's... 

I tried to tell him that but he has his views and they ain't changing. Hit a wall in development by or shortly after 2017 indeed ... like the USN isn't going to upgrade the radar on ships that it is intending to operate for the next 30 or 40 years.

 
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Volkodav    AG   10/8/2010 7:31:21 PM





 USN isn't getting rid of AEGIS anytime soon, quite the opposite in fact and is ordering more new AB Flight II's with Baseline 7.1 AEGIS systems then we're ordering AWD's... 




I tried to tell him that but he has his views and they ain't changing. Hit a wall in development by or shortly after 2017 indeed ... like the USN isn't going to upgrade the radar on ships that it is intending to operate for the next 30 or 40 years.



You seem to have missed the bit about the USN looking at replacing one of the two hangers in the Flight II Burke with an additional generator and auxillary machinery room to allow them to evolve them past 2020 and the bit about the Flight III using a new generation APAR with X and S band elements.  The US ships have space and weight to grow our F-100s don't.

 
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Volkodav    AD    10/8/2010 8:08:49 PM
Not to butt in to a rather lengthy discussion, but the AWD's will have a Horizon Search radar capability as well. I believe it will be a phased array radar design (NG's SPQ-9B rings a bell, but I can't remember exactly off hand) and the AWD will most certainly have multiple channels of fire for it's SM-2 and ESSM weapons. 
 
By all means butt in this was starting to go round in circles.
Yes there is a horizon search radar and it is the lastest derivative of the SPQ-9 but it is not a PAR, nor is it capable of acting as a firecontrol channel, they rely on a pair of SPG 62 for this.
The CEAMOUNT is an X band APAR capable of horizon search as well as terminal fire control.  It was looked at for the AWD inplace of the SPQ 9 and SPG 62 but has not been baselined at this time.  It may be too late to retrofit later as it would require a very magor change to the above deck arrangements to fit it.
 
We might have been able to get better than the F-105 AWD, but then again, perhaps not. Not if we wanted to man the things and be able to operate them... I find it a bit much to swallow that these will be "lemons" though. USN isn't getting rid of AEGIS anytime soon, quite the opposite in fact and is ordering more new AB Flight II's with Baseline 7.1 AEGIS systems then we're ordering AWD's...
 
Not lemons, my main concern is that they will only be good for 15 to 20 years which would be a poor return on our investment and that they will, in the longer term, be regarded as a missed oportunity as more capable and flexible ships enter service.  The USN has restarted production of the Flight II and are designing a Flight III, the Flight II will be AEGIS but the Flight III likely will not or will have a version so different to that in the AWD that it can never be retrofitted to such a small hull.  They are likely going the way of APAR.
 
The AWD's will also have about 700t "growth margin in them. I've not a clue what the ANZAC's had, but I sincerely doubt it was much more than that and at least the AWD's are getting the weapons and sensors they need from the "get go" which seems to be the exception rather than the rule with major Australian naval acquisitions...

And much of that has already been used, their future development relies on the replacement of current systems with light systems of new design to free up margin.  The ANZACs used up a fair bit of their margin with the torpedo tubes, 5" gun and Harpoon fit and were never as bare bones as originally intended.
 
Our ANZAC's needed major upgrades because they've had to adapt to becoming a primary surface combatant when they were never designed for such. Our FFG's needed major upgrades because they were kept far longer than they ever should have been. Hopefully the lessons from these classes ARE employed with the AWD.

Exactly, this is why an FFG or DDG version of the ANZAC hull makes sense, the ANZACs could have remained as patrol frigate and the FFGs could have been retired instead of upgraded.
 
1. Give them the capabilities they need when they enter service for ALL the likely roles asked of them. Don't purposefully under-gun or under-sensor them as a cost cutting measure. 
 
Agreed
 
2. Don't keep them longer than their intended design life...
 
Agreed
 
3. Dont delay the aquisition for so long that you are forced to buy old tech towards the end of its development cycle as the new tech has not been proven.  Replace you gear when it needs replacing with something that is proven but still has the potential to be upgraded through out its intended life cycle.  Don't buy into a dead end.

 
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