Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Australia Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: New Guns
Aussiegunneragain    11/7/2009 5:59:12 AM
Senator the Hon John Faulkner Minister for Defence Printer friendly version 20 Oct 2009 MIN3709/09 DEFENCE FIREPOWER TO RECEIVE MAJOR BOOST The Minister for Defence, Senator John Faulkner, today announced that the Government has given Second Pass Approval for a $493 million project to provide the next generation artillery system for the Australian Army. Senator Faulkner said the first phase of Land 17 (the Artillery Replacement Project) will provide the Army with four batteries of 35 M777A2 155mm Lightweight Towed Howitzers. “The Lightweight Towed Howitzer is the most advanced towed artillery system available in the world. It is air-portable under CH-47 Chinook helicopters and can provide a weight of fire not previously available to rapidly deployed forces,” Senator Faulkner said. “The second phase of the artillery enhancement will include the procurement of a self propelled artillery system, which will be capable of providing fire support to highly mobile mechanised forces. The artillery system will be further enhanced through the future acquisition of a digital terminal control system for the tactical control of artillery, naval and close air support fires by forward observers and joint terminal attack controllers. This element of the project will be considered by Government in the second half of 2010,” said Senator Faulkner. Senator Faulkner said these are high priority acquisitions which will provide improved protection and precision firepower to Australian soldiers, allowing missions to be carried out more efficiently, safely and effectively.
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6   NEXT
Aussie Diggermark 2       11/9/2009 9:10:53 AM

So doing the maths 3bde gets 4 guns per btn or one per coy and 7 bde are slightly better off with 6 guns per btn.  Seems a little under gunned to me.

How about three 8 gun bty's for 3 bde (total 24 M-777) while retaining two 8 gun M-198 bty for 7 bde for eventual replacement with a gun on truck solution (refubished M-198 or M-777 on Copperhead 6x6?).  How many battlegroups is 7 bde meant to have anyway?  If it is three, counting 2/14 LH , shouldn't 7 bde also have 3 bty?  Next step, with 5/7 RAR split into 5 and 7 RAR does this give 1 bde 4 battle groups?  Will we need 4 bty of SPG?


Only infantry battalions are provided artillery batteries in support. Other units - Cavalry, Armoured Regt's, Combat Engineers etc, might request artillery support and receive same if available, but Artillery's job first and foremost is to support the infantry. 
 
The M-198's are shagged and the upgrade program from LAND 17 have been dropped. Both the L-118/9 and M-198 will be withdrawn from service when LAND 17 Phase 1 has delivered it's guns. (36x M777A2 and 18x SPG).
 
Within 7 Brigade, there are 4x battalions (6RAR, 8/9 RAR, 9RQR and 25/49 RQR) with 6 and 8/9 being ARA battalions. Only the ARA battalions will be provided with an artillery battery in support.
 
1 Field Regt (7 Brigade's artillery regiment) will be downsizing to only 2x artillery batteries of 6x M777A2 guns each as I've already explained and these batteries will support 6 and 8/9RAR's. The reserve units may get to exercise with the regular artillery units every so often, but they won't have their own artillery support unit, unless an 81mm mortar equipped battery is raised as a reserve unit within 1 Field Regt, but I haven't heard anything about that.
 
1 Brigade has 2x mechanised infantry battalions. Each of these will receive direct support from their "own" SP gun equipped artillery battery. Neither the Cavalry Regt nor 1 Armoured Regt is entitled, nor has ever had their own supporting artillery battery and they will not in future either.

As I've said before, here's hoping follow-on phases of LAND 17 are authorised and more guns acquired, but I can't see it happening in the current climate... 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

Aussiegunneragain       11/9/2009 9:12:32 AM
Each battery of 6 guns will maintain 3x troops of 2 guns each.

Unless it has changed since I was in the RAA a battery has two sections with three guns each.

3 Brigade maintains 3x infantry battalions, currently supported by 3x artillery batteries. These batteries are however equipped with 6x L-118/9 105mm guns. In future, under phase 1 of LAND 17, 4 Field Regt will be equipped with 2x batteries of 12x M777A2 155mm guns. Gun detachments will be generated from these troops depending on the fire support needs of the particular battalions. If a battalion needs 6x guns in support, that's what they'll get. If a brigade sized exercise or deployment for 3 Brigade, occurs then it will most probably be the case that an extra battery from 1 Brigade of SP guns is brought in anyway, as is the case in Afghanistan where towed and self-propelled guns are used in combination to maximise each other's strengths. 

Makes sense, we'll never deploy our entire regular army at once anyway so there is always going to be a battery free to deploy with another battalion.

Apart from all that I agree with everything else said, I'm creaming my jeans that this is finally happenning.

 
Quote    Reply

Aussie Diggermark 2       11/9/2009 9:28:57 PM

Each battery of 6 guns will maintain 3x troops of 2 guns each.



Unless it has changed since I was in the RAA a battery has two sections with three guns each.



3 Brigade maintains 3x infantry battalions, currently supported by 3x artillery batteries. These batteries are however equipped with 6x L-118/9 105mm guns. In future, under phase 1 of LAND 17, 4 Field Regt will be equipped with 2x batteries of 12x M777A2 155mm guns. Gun detachments will be generated from these troops depending on the fire support needs of the particular battalions. If a battalion needs 6x guns in support, that's what they'll get. If a brigade sized exercise or deployment for 3 Brigade, occurs then it will most probably be the case that an extra battery from 1 Brigade of SP guns is brought in anyway, as is the case in Afghanistan where towed and self-propelled guns are used in combination to maximise each other's strengths. 



Makes sense, we'll never deploy our entire regular army at once anyway so there is always going to be a battery free to deploy with another battalion.



Apart from all that I agree with everything else said, I'm creaming my jeans that this is finally happenning.




Artillery is changing it's structure to 3x troop of 2 guns per battery, due to the increased capability of the 155mm guns, supported by AFATDS - C4I system and the new precision guided munitions (Excalibur, SMART 155 and the future "guided fuse" system).
 
I agree. It is an exciting time for Artillery and Army in general.
 
Now if they can only convince Government to fork out for a Phase 4 of LAND 17 where 3x operational batteries (1x per Artillery Regiment) worth of NLOS-LS systems can be acquired, I'd be one VERY happy chappy...
 
NLOS-LS is "da bomb" as they say...
 
ww.youtube.com/watch?v=6cL46ifGQJE
 

 
 
Quote    Reply

Enterpriser       11/9/2009 11:11:17 PM




Each battery of 6 guns will maintain 3x troops of 2 guns each.







Unless it has changed since I was in the RAA a battery has two sections with three guns each.







3 Brigade maintains 3x infantry battalions, currently supported by 3x artillery batteries. These batteries are however equipped with 6x L-118/9 105mm guns. In future, under phase 1 of LAND 17, 4 Field Regt will be equipped with 2x batteries of 12x M777A2 155mm guns. Gun detachments will be generated from these troops depending on the fire support needs of the particular battalions. If a battalion needs 6x guns in support, that's what they'll get. If a brigade sized exercise or deployment for 3 Brigade, occurs then it will most probably be the case that an extra battery from 1 Brigade of SP guns is brought in anyway, as is the case in Afghanistan where towed and self-propelled guns are used in combination to maximise each other's strengths. 







Makes sense, we'll never deploy our entire regular army at once anyway so there is always going to be a battery free to deploy with another battalion.







Apart from all that I agree with everything else said, I'm creaming my jeans that this is finally happenning.











Artillery is changing it's structure to 3x troop of 2 guns per battery, due to the increased capability of the 155mm guns, supported by AFATDS - C4I system and the new precision guided munitions (Excalibur, SMART 155 and the future "guided fuse" system).

 

I agree. It is an exciting time for Artillery and Army in general.

 

Now if they can only convince Government to fork out for a Phase 4 of LAND 17 where 3x operational batteries (1x per Artillery Regiment) worth of NLOS-LS systems can be acquired, I'd be one VERY happy chappy...


 

NLOS-LS is "da bomb" as they say...

 

ww.youtube.com/watch?v=6cL46ifGQJE


 




 



Agreed on the NLOS-LS.
I think that the points above are the critical factors. You and Abe are talking about the revelution in Arty capability and I agree that this a good thing. However my concern was that under this structure the maximum number of guns capable of being deployed was too small. I admit though, I am having a hard time envisaging the circumtances where more than 8 M777s and 4 SPGs (the maximum sustainble deployments using rule of threes) will be necessary. Obviously this is more than sufficient to support even a brigade on ops under most circumstances..................damn, does this mean I have to tell Abe he was right?.........argh! I am still not convinced that this establishment is sufficient for conventional war. I guess it really comes down to the type of enemy that it is evisaged one is engaging.
 
Brett.
 
Quote    Reply

Raven22       11/10/2009 1:29:33 AM

Only infantry battalions are provided artillery batteries in support. Other units - Cavalry, Armoured Regt's, Combat Engineers etc, might request artillery support and receive same if available, but Artillery's job first and foremost is to support the infantry. 
 
Within 7 Brigade, there are 4x battalions (6RAR, 8/9 RAR, 9RQR and 25/49 RQR) with 6 and 8/9 being ARA battalions. Only the ARA battalions will be provided with an artillery battery in support.

1 Field Regt (7 Brigade's artillery regiment) will be downsizing to only 2x artillery batteries of 6x M777A2 guns each as I've already explained and these batteries will support 6 and 8/9RAR's. The reserve units may get to exercise with the regular artillery units every so often, but they won't have their own artillery support unit, unless an 81mm mortar equipped battery is raised as a reserve unit within 1 Field Regt, but I haven't heard anything about that. 
1 Brigade has 2x mechanised infantry battalions. Each of these will receive direct support from their "own" SP gun equipped artillery battery. Neither the Cavalry Regt nor 1 Armoured Regt is entitled, nor has ever had their own supporting artillery battery and they will not in future either.
 
 
Er, no. Armoured units are just as entitled to the fire of artillery as the infantry. The whole point is NO unit has artillery in support - the artillery belongs to the brigade commander. Now, if a battlegroup commander is lucky or the brigade main effort or whatever, then he might be given a battery in direct support for a designated task or period of time, but that is pretty unusual. If the artillery is just in general support than everyone, infantry battalion or number three blanket stacker, is equally entitled to support. An infantry battalion has no more inherant right to fire support than anyone else.
 
One of the biggest improvements of the new artillery is the reduction in the fire unit to just two guns. At the moment each battery of 6 guns is a single fire unit - the battery can only serve on mission at a time. One of the requirements of artillery is superimposition, which is that one fire unit must be superimposed on another, so it can be used to serve unexpected targets etc. That means that a regiment with 3 batteries can only serve 2 targets at a time, as one battery must always be superimposed on another (now if you have a mortar platoon or two along for the ride as well life gets better, but you see the point). With the fire unit reduced to just two guns, a single 6 gun battery has 3 fire units all of its own. A two-battery regiment therefore has 6 fire units, and can serve 5 targets at a time as opposed to just two. Since each 2-gun detachment of the new guns has more range and far, far better ammunition than the old guns, you can see how Land-17 dramatically increases the capability for indirect fires.
 
Quote    Reply

Volkodav       11/10/2009 3:12:29 AM
Thanks for that Raven, long time no see, been OS again?
 
I suppose following this line of thinking the SPGs will be even more impressive with their 55 Cal tubes and auto loaders plus MRSI capability, each gun has the potential to provide the fires of a six gun battery on the first engagement.
 
What chance a 120mm mortar to provide indirect fire support at company / squadron level and a 60mm mortar to do the same at platoon / troop level? 
 
Quote    Reply

StevoJH       11/10/2009 6:01:41 AM
AD2,
 
9 RQR and 25/49 RQR are now part of 11 brigade rather then 7 Brigade.

11 Brigade
- 9 RQR
- 25/49 RQR
- 31/42 RQR
- Queensland University Regiment
- 11 CSSB
- 141 Sig Sqn
- 35 Fd Sqn
 
 
Quote    Reply

Aussie Diggermark 2       11/11/2009 7:10:50 AM
   Well I'll be damned. You learn something new everyday... Thanks mate. I hadn't heard of that. Sad really, given 9RQR was one of my old units... :(
 
AD2,
 
9 RQR and 25/49 RQR are now part of 11 brigade rather then 7 Brigade

11 Brigade

- 9 RQR

- 25/49 RQR

- 31/42 RQR

- Queensland University Regiment

- 11 CSSB

- 141 Sig Sqn

- 35 Fd Sqn

 
Quote    Reply

Aussiegunneragain    A few thoughts   11/14/2009 4:24:10 AM
Interesting about the move to the three troop structure. Apart from any tactical considerations the other benefit would be in officer development. Previously each artillery batterys had 3 lieutenants and 5 Captains, so we never seemed to have enough of the later meaning that we were always down FO's. Moving to 4 and 5 sounds like it might address that problem somewhat.
 
If the arrangements are similar to the way that they were when I was in the RAA both Raven and AD are right. Artillery batteries were allocated to an infantry battalion then, e.g. 105 was 8/9RAR's battery. The battery commander was attached to the battalion headquarters and served as the battalion commanders advisor on artillery, with an FO attached to each company to fullfill a similar role. This was a good arrangement because the reality is in the Australian Army that major offensive actions involving fireplanning, which needs an FO (usually for a quick fireplan to support a quick company attack involving one battery or to plot defensive fire zones around a defensive position) or a BC (for a full fireplan involving up to a regiment and co-ordinated with air/mortars etc) to co-ordinate, would revolve around a battalion or a company attack. However, Raven is right in that the artillery is a brigade resource and any element other than the infantry can call on it if it is required, though this would usually constitute an unplanned call for fire. The commanding officer of the regiment is located in the brigade headquarters and can be involved in fireplanning as well if it involves a brigade attack, though I don't know about the likelyhood of that ever happenning on operations that we undertake.
 
As for the number of batterys, it occurred to me that they have probably gone one down to not only save money but to offset the extra manning requirements of the new guns. Even if you take into account the smaller crews that the SP's will require compared to the M-198's, replacing the existing Hamel batteries with M-177's would have required the Army to maintain 30 extra gun numbers, which doesn't sound like much but when the economy picks up it will be harder to recruit and retain them.

 
 
Quote    Reply

Raven22       11/14/2009 6:53:53 AM
The difference these days is that each regiment now has far more JOSCCs/JOSTs etc and is able to provide enough JOSCCs for one to each battlegroup. So 8/12 may only have 2 batteries, but it has enough JOSCCs to provide for each battlegroup in 1 Bde. Therefore each combat team can have a JOST, and each platoon can be given an FO if need be. The main effort for the artilley at the moment is not the guns, it is the development of the FO/JOST/JOSCC/JFC (whichever acronym they are using these days) capability.
 
Quote    Reply
PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6   NEXT



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics