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Subject: Alternatives to a future submarine
Aussiegunneragain    9/21/2009 7:21:46 AM
Since there is a snowflake's chance in hell of us ever getting nuclear submarines, I'm wondering what people think about some sort of fast, stealthy, long-ranged surface ship which is also submersible to shallow depths to improve on the capabilities of the Collins Class when it eventually retires. I'm thinking a 3000 tonne class ship with either multiple hulls or single hull with a hydrofoil, which can move into an AO at high speed (30kt+) on the surface, but which can submerge by flooding the hulls and patrol at low speed once in the AO. Armament would consist of lightweight torpedos fired from remotely piloted asw vehicles, VLS-launched SSM's, LACM's and SAM's and a gun.
 
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FJV       9/23/2009 3:20:01 PM
Maybe a sub can be resupplied by an UUV
 
 
 
 
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gf0012-aust       9/24/2009 4:39:58 PM

Maybe a sub can be resupplied by an UUV

 
thats why things like conformal weapons packs are a nice simple concept.  it would cut down on weapons reload times, cut down some of the location restrictions.  
adding in concepts like conformal sensor packs has the same advantages.
there's no reason why UUV's couldn't be used in the future for resuppply of some criticals...


 

 


 
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Volkodav       9/25/2009 10:01:44 AM
 
It could be a good design for the ASC to buy and re-export completed hulls, like we didn't manage to do with the Collins.
we could have done it circa 2000-2002 except that we had a gutless government
Taiwan?
 
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Volkodav       9/25/2009 10:09:12 AM
thats why things like conformal weapons packs are a nice simple concept.  it would cut down on weapons reload times, cut down some of the location restrictions.  
adding in concepts like conformal sensor packs has the same advantages.
there's no reason why UUV's couldn't be used in the future for resuppply of some criticals...
 
Supersized Slocum Gliders prepositioned with all sorts of goodies including fully charged conformal battery packs. The sub drops the old pack, picks up the new while the glider retrieves the old pack and either returns to base or perhaps recharges it with some sort of water flow driven generator.
 
 
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Aussiegunneragain    FJV   9/26/2009 11:24:32 PM

Not convinced the requirements for fast travel and stealth above water can be applied without negatively impacting the requirements for fast travel and stealth below water. And the other way around.

 My hunch is what is good for above surface will be bad for below surface.

Probably but the mode of operations that I had in mind wouldn't require a high degree of speed or stealth below the water. What I am thinking is that the vessel could transit at high speed on the surface until it detects enemy radar emissions and then submerges just outside the range at which it itself can be detected (which would be quite close because of it's stealth). Then it patrol at low speed below the surface with ESM aerials raised and acoustic sensors in operation until it comes into contact with a target, which would be attacked with VLS discharged missiles. Because of the greater effective range of the missiles as compared to torpedos it would be less vulnerable to detection by the acoustic sensors on the target or on any escorting platforms. If by chance a platform doing a broad area ASW sweep came too close it could pop up and wallop it with a SAM then submerge again before anybody had a chance to respond. It could also wallop any shore-based radars detected which couldn't be skirted around with its gun or with a SSM in land-attack mode, allowing a rapid transit on the surface through the protected area then a rapid submergence in the new AO.
 
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Volkodav       9/27/2009 12:02:50 AM
A low profile, stealthy, multihulled platform with minimal draft may actually be a better way to go than a semi submersible considering the shallow littoral waters in our region. Other factors would include shock resistance, acoustic silencing, top space for sensor location as well as the need to keep any helo deck as high as possible for safe operation of helo's and UAV's
 
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gf0012-aust       9/27/2009 12:18:38 AM
UAV's have already been launched from subs.  USS Florida did it (publicly) in Ex Silent Hammer prior to its gut modification.  A few years have passed since then... so when the birds stop chirping....
 
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WarNerd       9/27/2009 12:26:54 AM

New batteries with close to diesel energy density permitting the replacement of the diesel generators and their fuel with a bigger battery. End result, an electric only submarine that can complete a full transit and patrol, submerged on a single charge. You want to extend the subs endurance, simple, rig our new generation support ships, which would likely be diesel electric themselves, to recharge the subs at sea.

Which battery types are you referring to?
 
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Volkodav       9/27/2009 12:38:48 AM
Which battery types are you referring to?
 
Not my field but look more toward what is being achieved in automotive battery technology than the tried and true 1970's tech used in current gen DE subs. Once batteries reach a certain efficiency diesel fuel, diesel generators and all current tech AIP become nothing but dead weight that cuts into the potential battery space.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       9/27/2009 3:51:10 AM

A low profile, stealthy, multihulled platform with minimal draft may actually be a better way to go than a semi submersible considering the shallow littoral waters in our region. Other factors would include shock resistance, acoustic silencing, top space for sensor location as well as the need to keep any helo deck as high as possible for safe operation of helo's and UAV's

There is no reason why what I am talking about couldn't operate entirely on the surface if it was more appropriate to do so. It's just that a semi-submersible vessel would give the commander another option to further improve stealth in areas of very high enemy activity, especially during the day when the Mark 1 eyeball on a radio-equipped fishing boat at anchor could undo a vessel on the surface.
 
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