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Subject: Hypothetical: F-35 lame duck
DropBear    5/30/2009 12:13:27 AM
It is 2013-14ish, Solomon Trujillo is the POTUS. He has decided that Australians look funny and smell bad too, therefore he has passed a law similar to the Obey ammendment that stops foreign military sale of the F-35 to countries he doesn't like. Australia is forced to make a decision between the Tranche3 Typhoon and the newly developed and service entered "stealthy F-15". In this scenario, you have to decide which one of these will be the new face of RAAF's Air Combat Group. There are no other choices allowed. Gentlemen, which one is it to be...
 
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gf0012-aust       5/30/2009 12:25:39 AM
if the US under Sol smacked a ban on tech transfer for JSF and related, then we're in far more trouble in other areas over the RAAF.

kiss goodbye to special access to comms, access to special ops shops goodies, goodbye to UDT, goodbye to NAVSEA and DARPA, goodbye to hypersonics participation (although the japanese would be grinning at the opportunity), goodbye to BAMs tech, goodbye to CEC technology, goodbye to participation in new comms and warfighting widgets such as Link22, goodbye to participation in about 20 annual exercises, goodbye to currently the highest executive sanctioned  access out of any other US allies (except UK).

in short, losing access to JSF ITARs flagged tech is less important than any of the above. 

why would we even bother considering with any US product under those circumstances.

denial of that plane means looking at the integrity of the relationshop.  It would mean that the Typhoon would get in with a fight, and we wouldn't have to worry about getting snowed by Boeing on any aircraft anymore - be it Seagle or be it Shornet.

We could save money all around.  Get rid of NACC, get rid of BACC, and give back the Shornets we got snowed on as well.

Pity a change of relationship would stuff up RAN and Arny who actually do real jobs.... :) 
 
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Arty Farty       5/30/2009 12:44:55 AM
Silent Eagle
 
More weapons, longer legs, Israeli stuff, others in the region have some and no haggling between governments over minute developments.
 
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StevoJH       5/30/2009 1:09:04 AM
Tranche 3 Typhoon > F15SE
 
 If Aegis gets taken off the table i guess that means the only options would be the PAAMs system from the T45 or the S300/400 system from the Russians.

 M1's would probably need to be replaced since parts would become a problem, leaving the Leopard II as the only option since Challenger 2's are out of production and the costs to restart production would probably be high.
 
ESSM on the frigates might be an issue if the change in policy includes currently operational weapons systems.
 
Remember that  Trujillo thinks we are all racist for wanting him gone, when it was really the fact that he did an absolutely sh*t job at Telstra. He should have been fired years ago, instead they gave him millions in bonuses, crazy.
 
 
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Arty Farty       5/30/2009 3:08:51 AM
Remember that  Trujillo thinks we are all racist for wanting him gone, when it was really the fact that he did an absolutely sh*t job at Telstra. He should have been fired years ago, instead they gave him millions in bonuses, crazy.


It's Telstra, everyone hates Telstra. Inevitable that someone would throw in "he's Mexican".
 
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StevoJH       5/30/2009 3:21:06 AM

Remember that  Trujillo thinks we are all racist for wanting him gone, when it was really the fact that he did an absolutely sh*t job at Telstra. He should have been fired years ago, instead they gave him millions in bonuses, crazy.






It's Telstra, everyone hates Telstra. Inevitable that someone would throw in "he's Mexican".
Just fuels fire that the person to do it was the Prime Minister I guess. ;)
 
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Aussiegunneragain       5/30/2009 4:01:02 AM
I'm with GF, if Sol doesn't want to transfer technology then ferk 'em and buy European. Oh, and we'll start selling uranium to all those wannabe nuclear weapons states in exchange for a hand to build our own nuclear deterrent and we'll sign a new defence treaty with China. He can go and stick the nuclear NPT up his arse.
 
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Volkodav       5/30/2009 10:21:41 PM
why would we even bother considering with any US product under those circumstances.

denial of that plane means looking at the integrity of the relationshop.  It would mean that the Typhoon would get in with a fight, and we wouldn't have to worry about getting snowed by Boeing on any aircraft anymore - be it Seagle or be it Shornet.
 
But isn't this effectively what they did with the F-22?
 
We are one of their best friends and have always had the option to buy their best, whether we chose to or not, but now we are lumped in with India, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. We can't have the best but can pay to help develop the second best with no garantee that we will be getting the full capability we paid for. Ironically the F-35 will likely be offered to almost everyone else, probably at more attactive prices and production shares than we get because they shopped around and we didn't.
 
If Pres Sol restricts access to the F-35 he may actually be doing the west a favor in that this will force the developed nations to evolve existing projects to fill the gap...a low observable carrier capable Typhoon  or Gripen NG to replace the F-35B in NATO's plans, a new stealthy manned strike bomber Typhoon derivative to replace the Tornado and a added impotus to the various European UCAV programs.
 
In answer tothe question we would go with the Typhoon and then reap the benifits intothe future of the greater competition resulting froms Sols incompetence, i.e. pretty much like has happened with telecommunications in Australia.
 
 
 
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Herald12345       5/30/2009 10:33:36 PM

why would we even bother considering with any US product under those circumstances.




denial of that plane means looking at the integrity of the relationshop.  It would mean that the Typhoon would get in with a fight, and we wouldn't have to worry about getting snowed by Boeing on any aircraft anymore - be it Seagle or be it Shornet.
 

But isn't this effectively what they did with the F-22?

 

We are one of their best friends and have always had the option to buy their best, whether we chose to or not, but now we are lumped in with India, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. We can't have the best but can pay to help develop the second best with no garantee that we will be getting the full capability we paid for. Ironically the F-35 will likely be offered to almost everyone else, probably at more attactive prices and production shares than we get because they shopped around and we didn't.

 

If Pres Sol restricts access to the F-35 he may actually be doing the west a favor in that this will force the developed nations to evolve existing projects to fill the gap...a low observable carrier capable Typhoon  or Gripen NG to replace the F-35B in NATO's plans, a new stealthy manned strike bomber Typhoon derivative to replace the Tornado and a added impotus to the various European UCAV programs.

 

In answer tothe question we would go with the Typhoon and then reap the benifits intothe future of the greater competition resulting froms Sols incompetence, i.e. pretty much like has happened with telecommunications in Australia.

 

 


Haven't you heard? Nobody will get the F-22 anymore, not even US. D--- that fool, Gates. http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/face5.gif" align="absmiddle" border="0" alt="" />  
 
Herald
 
 
 
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Volkodav       5/31/2009 1:16:52 AM
Oh I've heard but this probably isn't the thread to go to how the F-22 would be cheaper, more capable and still in production if the US had allowed exports to close allies.
 
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Herald12345       5/31/2009 2:52:33 AM

Oh I've heard but this probably isn't the thread to go to how the F-22 would be cheaper, more capable and still in production if the US had allowed exports to close allies.

Oh that is all I have to say on the subject. This is an AUSTRALIAN board.
 
Herald
 
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