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Subject: Is Afghanistan more dangerous for our troops without extra support?
Aussiegunneragain    3/18/2009 4:06:29 AM
The article below seems to indicate that by sending our Army trainers out with Afghan Forces alone, we are putting them at greater risk due to lower levels of competence amongst the latter. Could the prospect that by sending our own infantry to patrol in greater numbers with the Afghan's we might reduce casualties, be just the thing for the Army getting to deploy the extra troops there that it wants to? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Digger's death exposes Afghan roleFont Size: Decrease Increase Patrick Walters, National security editor | March 18, 2009 Article from: The Australian MILITARY chiefs have defended the support given to Australia's new army training teams in Afghanistan following the death of another soldier, killed in a firefight with the Taliban. Play 12345Loading…Please login to rate a video.You can't rate an advertisement.(5 votes) Dead digger a new dad The latest Australian soldier to die in Afghanistan became a father just days ago. 3/09 Sky News Views today: 1089Sorry, this video is no longer available.The soldier, the ninth Australian serviceman to die in Afghanistan, was a member of the army's newly established operational mentor and liaison team, which is helping to train an Afghan National Army battalion. He was badly wounded while on patrol with the ANA soon after 9am (3.30pm AEDT) on Monday near the village of Kakarak, 12km north of the Australian base at Tarin Kowt. Defence chief Angus Houston said yesterday the infantryman had suffered a serious gunshot wound after his patrol became involved in an intense firefight with about 20 Taliban insurgents using small arms and rocket-propelled grenades. Air Chief Marshal Houston said an aero-medical evacuation was called in and two Apache helicopters sent from Tarin Kowt to help fight off the insurgents. The soldier was evacuated by helicopter to Tarin Kowt but declared dead on arrival. The young soldier, from the Darwin-based 7RAR, was the first member of the Mentoring and Reconstruction Task Force to be killed since its formation last October. His death has brought into sharp scrutiny the roles and missions being performed by Australian soldiers in Oruzgan province. A fortnight ago, an officer with the first of the OML teams in Oruzgan, Lieutenant Jake Kleinman, said he would like more infantry to support operations. "If we were going to increase troops here, I think infantry should be the first step, followed by more engineers to support their operations," he told Sky News. Lieutenant Kleinman said while it was not his job to talk about numbers, up to an extra battalion of infantry (about 750 troops) would be "excellent" for Oruzgan. Some Australian trainers are also understood to have expressed reservations about the fighting prowess of the Afghan army while on joint patrols. Air Chief Marshal Houston said yesterday he was satisfied that OML teams had enough support when on patrol with Afghan soldiers. "I'm satisfied that, in these circumstances, these soldiers had all the support they needed, given the circumstances that they came up against," he said. "If you're up against 20 people who are well-armed and are engaging you with rocket-propelled grenades, small arms, there is going to be considerable risk associated with what you're doing." Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon said the Government constantly reviewed troop numbers in Afghanistan and was guided by advice from defence chiefs. Kevin Rudd said he was deeply saddened to learn of the soldier's death and the nation mourned. "He was a fine and courageous soldier in the great Anzac tradition," the Prime Minister told parliament. Army trainers working in the OML teams are embedded with Afghan army units in forward operating bases away from the main Australian base at Kamp Holland. They help ANA soldiers plan operations, accompany them on joint patrols and advise on tactics.
 
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BLUIE006       3/22/2009 6:20:27 AM
155mm fire support is available in Oruzgan from NL artillery.  I'd suggest that the current UK GMLRS coverage also extends into Oruzgan, the question is how far.  However large dumb munitions, eg 120mm mor and 155mm HE are not a great idea, they may be ideal in the wide open empty spaces but most of the action is in the vicinity of the local population, this makes a mix of smart munitions and fairly small dumb ones (eg 81mm and 105mm) generally better.  The issue is the best way of delivering the smart ones.
 
The XM395 PGMM (Precision-Guided Mortar Munition) - tests demonstrated its ability to hit within 1 m of the laser designated aim point.
Capt. Mike Hoffman, Co. I commanding officer of the Marines of 3rd Battalion, 8th Marine Regiments said the 120 mm mortars give the Marines of 3/8 an increased range to engage effectively and eliminate their targets, and illuminate the battlefield during hours of darkness.
The 120 mm mortars have been instrumental to our success in Afghanistan,? Hoffman said. ?They provide us certain advantages as opposed to the previous 81mm weapon systems.
- They could be a cost effective medium range Australian controlled precision Non Line of Sight fire support system... http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emteeth.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" alt="" />
 
-------------------------------
If we have 155mm & British Rocket fire support? where was it ?
 
In the article it states the incident happened 12km north of the Australian base at Tarin Kowt.
Two Apache helicopters were sent from Tarin Kowt to help fight off the insurgents.
 
GMLRS-The firing battery requires a total processing time of three to four minutes from the time the CFF is sent until the report of "Ready" by the launcher. Upon the command to "Fire," the launcher takes an additional 12 seconds to update the rocket's GPS before firing. Rocket speed ? Approx 15000 km per hour
at 15km time to target is about 4.5 - 5 minutes.
It can be fired in close proximity to troops with minimal chance of collateral damage to personnel or structures. The RED for GMLRS unitary is lower than the joint direct attack munition.
 
ARH-64 Maximum speed: 158 knots (182 mph, 293 km/h) = 4 minutes flight time (approx) + dispatch time
(say 3-4 minutes) Time to target= a very optimistic 8 Minutes
 
Is 3 Minutes - is a long time in the heat of battle? http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emclock.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" alt="" />
How many bullets/RPGs can be fired at you in three minutes ? http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emkulou.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" alt="" />
 
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Aussiegunneragain       3/22/2009 6:57:57 AM
Fair points all. I've read that the ANA is about 80,000 strong at the moment but that they need to get it up to about 200,000 to secure the country. Even if they had good retention rates it would be hard to keep anybody in long enough to provide enough high quality officers and NCO's. Then again perhaps it is unfair to compare them against the standards of a professional volenteer army. I'd imagine that if the predominantly special forces personel who are training and fighting with  the ANA fought alongside Australian Vietnam or WW2 conscripts, that they would feel less secure than they would if they were fighting alongside soldiers trained to their own standards.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       3/22/2009 7:01:03 AM
What the upshot of all this is of course is that rather than talking about how we are "not winning" in Afghanistan, the ISAF leaders really need to take the longer term perspective and be prepared to do a lot of the fighting for the Afghan's for another decade, while they get their military up to a size and standard where they can do it themselves. We should be contributing to that I think.
 
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neutralizer       3/25/2009 3:27:43 AM
I suspect AH64 times are a bit more, unless they are sitting on the ground with crew aboard and most pre-flight checks completed (not forgetting having a suitable weapon load).
 
On the other hand GMLRS may be a bit shorter, you can't do much about time of flight and we're talking up to 70 km range.  However, last year the Brits reported a US GMLRS contingent visited them to see why their response time was significantly faster than the US one.  I'd have to consult the MoD online maps to see if North of TQ is in range to current positioning, but N is probably not a favourable direction.  Of course for GMLRS precise mesuration is vital and perhaps Aust don't have the appropriate devices to give the necessary small spherical error in tgt loc?
 
As for mortars, the answer may be to use 81mm with a prox fuze, unless range is the issue.
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Fire Support   3/25/2009 9:55:05 AM

I suspect AH64 times are a bit more, unless they are sitting on the ground with crew aboard and most pre-flight checks completed (not forgetting having a suitable weapon load).

 

On the other hand GMLRS may be a bit shorter, you can't do much about time of flight and we're talking up to 70 km range.  However, last year the Brits reported a US GMLRS contingent visited them to see why their response time was significantly faster than the US one.  I'd have to consult the MoD online maps to see if North of TQ is in range to current positioning, but N is probably not a favourable direction.  Of course for GMLRS precise mesuration is vital and perhaps Aust don't have the appropriate devices to give the necessary small spherical error in tgt loc?

 
As for mortars, the answer may be to use 81mm with a prox fuze, unless range is the issue.

The obvious solution for Australia would be to deploy an M-198 Battery and try to get the Yanks to fast track the FMS process for Excalibur, and send a few of those pre-production shells our way for those scrapes where we can't use unguided rounds. They would probably appreciate the extra troops on the ground and we could assure that our infantry have the support then need.

 
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neutralizer       3/26/2009 3:23:16 AM
TQ is too far East for GMLRS from the current areas in N Helmand, also probably too far North for lnchers arounf Kandahar.
 
The NL already have perfectly adequate 155mm available in Oruzgan.  Shouldn't be any more of a problem than it is for UK providing direct support to the DK battlegroup (who incidentally are European and have taken significnat casualties, something the Aust media ignores, what does 'our' Princess Mary think of that I wonder).
 
 
 
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BLUIE006       3/26/2009 8:02:09 AM

MULTIPLE LAUNCH ROCKET SYSTEM (MLRS) M270A1 LAUNCHER

 

Army ACAT IC Program

 

Prime Contractor

Total Number of Systems:

857

Lockheed Martin Vought Systems

Total Program Cost (TY$):

$2,297.7M

 

Average Unit Cost (TY$):

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BLUIE006       3/26/2009 8:30:35 AM
XM982 Excalibur = As of 2008, unit costs are $85,000, potentially dropping to $50,000 in full-scale production http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emsmileo.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" alt="" />
Range of approximately 40 to 57 km http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emsmileo.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" alt="" />
Depending on configuration a circular error probable (CEP) of around 10 m
 
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Aussiegunneragain    ANA incompetance   3/28/2009 3:32:44 AM
I have recently spoken to an ex-serviceman who served in Afghanistand and learned a lot of very interesting things. On the issue of ANA incompetence he basically said that the main reason is that apart from the Police, the Army is the absolute employer of last resort in that country. Consequently the guy's who join are often nutcases who spend a lot of time getting stoned and firing their weapons at the ceiling fans in their accomodation. Sort of shows you the problems the trainers are up against. Apparently the Police are even worse and have been known to lend their weapons to the Taiban over night.
 
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Yak    Threat Grouping   3/28/2009 9:33:14 AM
It may seem old - Inf Bn + Armour + Arty + Avn assets in a package. No isolated deployments.
 
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