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Subject: ASLAV MLU
Volkodav    12/13/2008 1:06:14 AM
I recently read some info on plans for an ASLAV MLU. The list of options included - Automotive upgrades, to reverse the degadation caused by increased weight (added protection) and hard use. Upgraded armour An integrated defensive suite including ESM and hard kill components. Increased boyancy to return the river and lake crossing amphib capability lost with the weight increases. A fully intergrated vehicle monitoring and control system. and The possibility of manufacturing replacement hulls to a new design. All of this would provide the most advanced and capable CFV in the world but with only an estemated 5 to seven years service life before replacement with the selected LAND 400 solution. Why? Would it not be smarter, less risky and more economical to put the ASLAV fleet though a more limited reset program so they will be able to last their original planned service life while also acquiring a small number of new build Advanced ASLAV's for our front line commitments until the availablity of the LAND 400 CAV solution? If we are talking new power train, new hull, new armour, an intergrated defensive suite and a completely intergrated vehicle control system, with only the turret and main armament being retained; isn't this basically a new vehicle anyway? Why not just replace the current fleet early with new build vehicles of this enhanced design?
 
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Raven22       12/13/2008 6:09:04 AM

The Phase 4 upgrade is now far less ambitious than it once was. Instead of the essentially brand new vehicle originally intended, about all that will change is a new higher and heavier hull for more ballistic protection, and a few other improvements.

The new hull will have a better hull shape to deflect blast, more belly armour and built in spall liners. It will also be higher. New alloy wheels and hatches will be introduced to help keep weight down. The new hull will maintain an amphib capability.

The drive train isn't being upgraded at all, just a major overhaul. There have been automotive trials of ASLAVs at 14600kg with no real degradation in capability, and trials are being conducted now at a weight of 15400kg to see if that is too heavy. The weight of vehicles in the middle east (without bar armour) was over 14500kg without any real degredation in capability, so not much would change. A new airconditioner would be good though - the current ones does fuck all, and it gets very hot in the back of an ASLAV in an Iraqi summer (my personal record was 68.3 degrees).

The other big change will just be integrating all the various improvements added over the last 20 years to make them easier to use. For instance, the RDJ which provides power to the turret is at maximum capacity, and nothing else can be added in the turret, which has lead to the BCSS system being fitted into a ridiculous spot. That will be fixed.

A drivers's thermal - the same one as the Abrams - is being introduced next year, along with the serveillance suite for the -S variant. The new BCSS system - probably the Israeli system - will be integrated to replace the interim system currently fitted. The active protection system is basically a seperate part and not part of the phase 4 upgrade proper.

All this should allow the ASLAV to remain as essentially the best vehicle in the world for its role until replaced by Land 400, which will probably be after 2020 now. It won't be cheap either - just the reconditioning the vehicles coming back from Iraq are being put through costs $550 000 per vehicle, and that is without upgrading anything.

The one thing I really want to change is the layout of the back of a Type 1 hull - I reckon I could pimp that out pretty well. Put the fuel tank on the left bulkhead as in the Type 2, put a bench seat on the right hand side, add in a magazine to hold 300-odd 25mm rounds that sits to the left of the turret and extends up to just behind the turret cage, a built in fridge, a cold water cooler, proper brackets for ammunition boxes, a screen that shows the turret camera footage for passengers as in the NZLAV which can also control the BCSS etc etc. I made my suggestions to the general dynamics dudes, but they just looked at me blankly so I can't see anything really changing. If they made the magazine developed for Afghanistan a standard feature that would be good though.

 

 
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Volkodav       12/13/2008 10:05:13 PM
So a new hull is on the cards.  I suppose that makes sense as replacing the hull with a new better shaped, better protected one would have the greatest impact on survivability for the cost and would be cheaper than the usual cluster we seem to achieve when we add systems and capabilities to shagged hulls/platforms.
 
A properly designed replacement hull could also be fitted for but not with new systems to further enhance capability in the future, once those systems have matured enough to be fitted.
 
I have heard that many of the new vehicle designs that may be considered as an ASLAV replacement are too large as they are actually wheeled IFV's and not CFV's and that the hand full that are of suitable size lack the required mobility and firepower in that the don't have turrets and are only 4x4 or 6x6.  A new 8x8 hull designed to incorporate the best of the current ASLAV's systems and capabilities is probably a very smart way to go as the new vehicle would still have significant ILS comonality to the legacy platform while improving performant and capability also effectively zero timing the vehicles life cycle.
 
An evolved vehicle based on the new hull could actually go on to form the basis of LAND 400.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       12/14/2008 1:31:39 AM
I would also ask why but rather why are we replacing the ASLAV's in Land 400? The oldest vehicles are under 20 years old which isn't that old for an AFV and the newest have been in service for less than a decade. If we are going to keep both ASLAV regiments I would rather see the vehicles upgraded as described with Land 400 to replace the M-113 with a proper IFV.
 
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Raven22       12/14/2008 3:22:10 AM
An evolved vehicle based on the new hull could actually go on to form the basis of LAND 400
 

I doubt it. The ASLAV, with a new hull, new turret or not, is still a 30 year old design. It has pretty much reached its limits as to what it can be evolved into. It simply wont be able to compete with vehicles designed from the ground up with new powerplants, drivetrains, suspension, brakes, integrated electrical systems, BCSS, sensors, APS etc. A hotted up VL Commodore still can't compete with a VE GTS.

IMO there is no vehicle in development that can type-for-type replace the ASLAV. All new vehicles are too big to be a perfect replacement. I reckon we'll just accept this and get a larger vehicle based on a IFV, and see a small revolution in the cav. IMO the role of the Type 1s and Type 2s will be combined into a single hull, with troops being reduced to 4 vehicles. I reckon a proper support squadron will be introduced as well, with a mortar troop, anti-tank troop, assualt troop,surveillance troop etc. It will be interesting.
 
I would also ask why but rather why are we replacing the ASLAV's in Land 400? The oldest vehicles are under 20 years old which isn't that old for an AFV and the newest have been in service for less than a decade. If we are going to keep both ASLAV regiments I would rather see the vehicles upgraded as described with Land 400 to replace the M-113 with a proper IFV.
 

Sigh. As has been said 9348 times before, BOTH the ASLAV and M113 is being replaced under Land 400. By the way, if we are going by vehicle ages, the AS4s will be far, far younger than the ASLAVs when Land 400 comes around. So will the Bushmasters. When the AS4s come online, the ASLAVs will be by far the oldest AFVs in service. They will have also seen by far the most use, and will most in need of replacing.

 
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Volkodav       12/15/2008 6:05:20 AM
I wonder if SEP could be the ideal LAND 400 solution with its modular design, tracked and wheeled varients (both 6x6 &8x8), electric or mechanical drive lines and many other advanced features.
 
It is probably the only FOV that could replace the ASLAV, M-113 and Bushmaster.
 
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Archer 155mm       12/29/2008 5:23:43 AM
 
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Archer 155mm    GDLS and ASLAV Upgrade   12/29/2008 5:26:38 AM
GDLS is apparently proposing an aluminium external applique armour kit for the ASLAVs.
 
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Volkodav       12/31/2008 10:39:11 PM
How hard would it be to design and build our own CFV specifically tailored to the ADF's needs using MOTS and COTS systems?
 
Do something similar to project Bushranger that resulted in the extremely successful Bushmaster IMV FOV, where proven components were combined in a unique hull to meet the ADF's needs.
 
We could take the best turret, drive train, suspension, defensive and surveillance systems, then combine them into the ideal hull configuration for the role.  I was thinking reduced overall height, greater / variable ground clearance, superior ballistic protection.  Best of all we could develop a FOV using many common systems in very different hull configurations, after all the main advantage of commonality is in logistic support of line replaceable items.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       1/5/2009 5:58:38 AM
Sigh. As has been said 9348 times before, BOTH the ASLAV and M113 is being replaced under Land 400. By the way, if we are going by vehicle ages, the AS4s will be far, far younger than the ASLAVs when Land 400 comes around. So will the Bushmasters. When the AS4s come online, the ASLAVs will be by far the oldest AFVs in service. They will have also seen by far the most use, and will most in need of replacing.
 
You really think everybody here was born yesterday don't you. A new powerpack and a bit of applique don't make a 40 year old M-113 a modern, effective IFV. They are still obsolete against modern threats and need to be replaced ASAP by a modern, heavier tracked IFV. Our allies all get it that this is what is necessary on the modern battlefield, so inter-corp rivalries aside I don't see why you can't. They definately need to be replaced before the ASLAV's, the youngest of which is less than a decade old.
 
As for Land 400 replacing both types, I know that is the plan but I also know that they want to try and do it with a common hull. It appears to me to be a fundamentally stupid plan. Aside from that Swedish machine that Volkodav mentioned and which has been cancelled, there is no type that can replace both wheeled and tracked capabilities in on hull. With this government being what it is some wanker will probably tell them that that wheels are the best for operations in Northern Australia, where we will never operate, and this will result in 5 and 7 RAR getting some bullshit wheeled "IFV" like 2 Cav wil. It depresses me but I would give it greater than even odds since successive governments have only gotten 1 out of 4 armoured vehicle acquisitions/major upgrades right over the last 20 years. Lets hope you guys never have to face ATGW's while operating in a bog, or somebody is going to be writing to your mum.
 
 


An evolved vehicle based on the new hull could actually go on to form the basis of LAND 400

I doubt it. The ASLAV, with a new hull, new turret or not, is still a 30 year old design. It has pretty much reached its limits as to what it can be evolved into. It simply wont be able to compete with vehicles designed from the ground up with new powerplants, drivetrains, suspension, brakes, integrated electrical systems, BCSS, sensors, APS etc. A hotted up VL Commodore still can't compete with a VE GTS.


IMO there is no vehicle in development that can type-for-type replace the ASLAV. All new vehicles are too big to be a perfect replacement. I reckon we'll just accept this and get a larger vehicle based on a IFV, and see a small revolution in the cav. IMO the role of the Type 1s and Type 2s will be combined into a single hull, with troops being reduced to 4 vehicles. I reckon a proper support squadron will be introduced as well, with a mortar troop, anti-tank troop, assualt troop,surveillance troop etc. It will be interesting.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       1/5/2009 5:59:33 AM




Sigh. As has been said 9348 times before, BOTH the ASLAV and M113 is being replaced under Land 400. By the way, if we are going by vehicle ages, the AS4s will be far, far younger than the ASLAVs when Land 400 comes around. So will the Bushmasters. When the AS4s come online, the ASLAVs will be by far the oldest AFVs in service. They will have also seen by far the most use, and will most in need of replacing.
 

You really think everybody here was born yesterday don't you. A new powerpack and a bit of applique don't make a 40 year old M-113 a modern, effective IFV. They are still obsolete against modern threats and need to be replaced ASAP by a modern, heavier tracked IFV. Our allies all get it that this is what is necessary on the modern battlefield, so inter-corp rivalries aside I don't see why you can't. They definately need to be replaced before the ASLAV's, the youngest of which is less than a decade old.

 

As for Land 400 replacing both types, I know that is the plan but I also know that they want to try and do it with a common hull. It appears to me to be a fundamentally stupid plan. Aside from that Swedish machine that Volkodav mentioned and which has been cancelled, there is no type that can replace both wheeled and tracked capabilities in on hull. With this government being what it is some wanker will probably tell them that that wheels are the best for operations in Northern Australia, where we will never operate, and this will result in 5 and 7 RAR getting some bullshit wheeled "IFV" like 2 Cav wil. It depresses me but I would give it greater than even odds since successive governments have only gotten 1 out of 4 armoured vehicle acquisitions/major upgrades right over the last 20 years. Lets hope you guys never have to face ATGW's while operating in a bog, or somebody is going to be writing to your mum.

 

Read this one, I accidentally left some extra text in the last.
 
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