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Subject: Australian Experdinonary Frigate
THEPUSSMK2    11/21/2008 5:02:58 AM
Ok I have been mulling over the idea of replacing the FFG's with a class of four experdinonary frigates. By this I mean a warship with capability of a frigate with the ability to carry a company (around 150 troops). This ship would be similar in inspiration to the Absalon Class, However the embarked troops would not be accommodated in containers on the mission deck as this would eliminate your ability to carry vehicles and bulk stores, so I have added an extra 1200 tons which is probably overly generous. The proposed ship would displace around 7500 tons have a crew of an ANZAC (160) Flight of 20 (Two Helos) and 150 Troops. It would have a well deck capabile of taking one LCM and two rading craft whist the ship would have two standard RAN RIBS for normal ship operations on upperdeck davits. Armerments would consit of a MK 45 MOD 4 5" Gun, 2 to 4 VLS modules,2 MK 141 Harpoon launchers, 4 quad Nulka launchers , internal SVTT's (anti sub torps) 1 MK 1B phalnax (1b gives a point and shot option) Typhoon and Mini Typhoon to round of the close in protection. The ships would be equiped with CEAFAR radars (the Australian develpoped Search and Illumination radars that are being installed in the ANZAC upgragde) couple with the latest SAAB combat system. So the grand idea is to have four of these ships.One in refit, one on work ups/having a break, one doing normal navy type stuff and one patroling arounf the pacific with a company of light infanty from the Townsville infantry battions embarked ready to responed to any natural desaster or civil unrest in the Pacific region. This one company would not be enough to quell a islands civvile unrest, However it should be able to evacuate forigen nationals whislt the "Fat Ships" troop up and do the job properly. 1 of the 2 Helos embarked would be and army/navy NH 90 which should be able to carry enough troops to secure the embassy whislt the two army rading craft should be enough troops to secure the landing point, Which would be closly folowed by the LCM with a couple of Bushmasters loaded to carry troops to the embassy, whilst further loads of Bushys would be able to pick up civilians / deliver more troops. There is a an old adage that "Steel is cheep and air is cheeper". I think a ready response "experdinonary" frigate would be very valuble in the future with the world going the way it is.
 
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Volkodav       11/21/2008 5:32:36 AM
Top idea, a ship like this would also be very useful for UN policing missions similar to those being undertaken by the ANZAC's in the Gulf at the moment. 
 
The ability to carry troops does not mean they have to carry them all the time and there would be nothing to stop the ships being used as a mother ship for special forces, clearance divers and /or various unmanned vehicles.
 
They would be incredably versatile and we would probably need more of them than 4.  Maybe they could be a one for one replacement for the ANZAC's with the 4 remaining FFG's being replaced with 3 evolved AWD's. 
 
 
 
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THEPUSSMK2       11/21/2008 5:45:27 AM

Top idea, a ship like this would also be very useful for UN policing missions similar to those being undertaken by the ANZAC's in the Gulf at the moment. 

 

The ability to carry troops does not mean they have to carry them all the time and there would be nothing to stop the ships being used as a mother ship for special forces, clearance divers and /or various unmanned vehicles.

 

They would be incredably versatile and we would probably need more of them than 4.  Maybe they could be a one for one replacement for the ANZAC's with the 4 remaining FFG's being replaced with 3 evolved AWD's. 

 

 



Cheers mate, I like your idea of using them to support SF/CD and UMVs!. They could also act as a MCM mother ship now you have opend Pandorias "BOX"
 
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Volkodav       11/21/2008 6:12:12 AM
Just applying some of the SEA 1000 concepts to a skimmer.  If you can do it with a sub you can do it cheaper with a surface ship.
 
With a skimmer you also have helo facilities and a moon pool might be an interesting addition of the hull was large enough with sufficient subdivision and stability reserves.  At the end of the day, so long as you resisted the urge to fill every cubic meter of volume with black boxes and things that go bang, increasing the size of a hull can actually reduce acquisition and through life costs.  Just look at some of the super sized container ships cruising around the world at the moment.
 
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THEPUSSMK2       11/21/2008 6:23:45 AM

Just applying some of the SEA 1000 concepts to a skimmer.  If you can do it with a sub you can do it cheaper with a surface ship.

 

With a skimmer you also have helo facilities and a moon pool might be an interesting addition of the hull was large enough with sufficient subdivision and stability reserves.  At the end of the day, so long as you resisted the urge to fill every cubic meter of volume with black boxes and things that go bang, increasing the size of a hull can actually reduce acquisition and through life costs.  Just look at some of the super sized container ships cruising around the world at the moment.



If you had a well deck why would you need a moon pool?
 
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Volkodav       11/21/2008 7:11:33 AM
Whoops, moon pool instead of well deck.  You could have a stern rail system like Absalon, or even a stern door and a ramp for lauch and recovery of CB-90's (or similar) or even Fast Interceptor Craft with the Moon pool midships for launching submersables. 
 
I missed your suggestion of the well deck on first reading and while it would be an option and was one i used to like, as someone pointed out to me in another post a well deck or dock uses a lot of volume and can compromise survivability in a warship.  Having a well deck would also require a broader, deeper stern than other wise which would the reduce speed and economical cruising the platform could otherwise achieve.  It would also make working in a towed arry very difficult.
 
Something I had thought of previously was replacing the LCH's and the proposed logistics ship with a class of small LPD's like Singapores Endurance Class or smaller to support the LHD's.
 
I suppose it depends which way you want to go, is it an amphibious platform with a frigates firepower or is it a frigate that can lift and deploy troops?
 
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THEPUSSMK2       11/21/2008 7:45:28 AM

Whoops, moon pool instead of well deck.  You could have a stern rail system like Absalon, or even a stern door and a ramp for lauch and recovery of CB-90's (or similar) or even Fast Interceptor Craft with the Moon pool midships for launching submersables. 

 

I missed your suggestion of the well deck on first reading and while it would be an option and was one i used to like, as someone pointed out to me in another post a well deck or dock uses a lot of volume and can compromise survivability in a warship.  Having a well deck would also require a broader, deeper stern than other wise which would the reduce speed and economical cruising the platform could otherwise achieve.  It would also make working in a towed arry very difficult.

 

Something I had thought of previously was replacing the LCH's and the proposed logistics ship with a class of small LPD's like Singapores Endurance Class or smaller to support the LHD's.

 

I suppose it depends which way you want to go, is it an amphibious platform with a frigates firepower or is it a frigate that can lift and deploy troops?


It would be a frigate that would be capable of ampib ops. The well deck would be very smal as it would only house one LCM and two radier craft (if space allowed the raiders would be stowed above the LCM). The mulitimisson deck would run the lenght from the end of the well deck to the bridge of the ship (becauce after that most ships start to get very narrow after that and space would be taken up by the VLS and 5"Gun anyway.
 
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SCisback       11/26/2008 12:41:10 PM

Something I had thought of previously was replacing the LCH's and the proposed logistics ship with a class of small LPD's like Singapores Endurance Class or smaller to support the LHD's.

I think you'll find that the LCHs will go without replacement. There will be some large doctrine change when the LHDs come on line, and LCHs (or a derivative) dont really fit in.
 
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Volkodav       11/27/2008 6:47:18 AM




Something I had thought of previously was replacing the LCH's and the proposed logistics ship with a class of small LPD's like Singapores Endurance Class or smaller to support the LHD's.




I think you'll find that the LCHs will go without replacement. There will be some large doctrine change when the LHDs come on line, and LCHs (or a derivative) dont really fit in.


Ah huh, that why I was suggesting a class of small LPD's.  The assumption is that we will be acquiring a class of LCU's to operate from the well deck of the LHD's.  It doesn't really make sense then to limit our options of deploying the LCU's by only having the 2 LHD's to deploy them, hence my idea of the small LPD's with a well deck capable of operating an LCU or two.
I am curious whether we will be acquiring a couple of BARV's to support the vehicles landed by the new amphibs, noting that the UK and Dutch are both using BARV's modified from surplus Leopard 1 tank hulls.  (hint hint)
 
http://www.panzerbaer.de/types/pix/NL_Fleetdays_05_LEOPARD_1_BARV_Samsoni.jpg" width="669" border="1" alt="" />
 
Also of interest to me is whether we will buy any specialised armoured vehicles to support troops deployed from the LHD's i.e. something akin to the BVS10 Viking that is light enough to be flown in by Chinook as well as landed over the beach.  Even a small number of of EFV's to equip an Amphibious Tractor Squadron or group.

 
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SCisback       11/27/2008 7:30:15 PM









Something I had thought of previously was replacing the LCH's and the proposed logistics ship with a class of small LPD's like Singapores Endurance Class or smaller to support the LHD's.










I think you'll find that the LCHs will go without replacement. There will be some large doctrine change when the LHDs come on line, and LCHs (or a derivative) dont really fit in.







Ah huh, that why I was suggesting a class of small LPD's.  The assumption is that we will be acquiring a class of LCU's to operate from the well deck of the LHD's.  It doesn't really make sense then to limit our options of deploying the LCU's by only having the 2 LHD's to deploy them, hence my idea of the small LPD's with a well deck capable of operating an LCU or two.


We'd be much better off by buying a sea transportation ship (whether dock and/or ro-ro) that will actually support the LHDs and any operation by providing valuable follow up logistical support.
That'd be priority over a duplicate capability and poorer cousin to the LHDs. And with manning and funding issues it's much more realistic than a "class of small LPDs".
 
 
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Volkodav       11/28/2008 5:22:21 AM
We'd be much better off by buying a sea transportation ship (whether dock and/or ro-ro) that will actually support the LHDs and any operation by providing valuable follow up logistical support.
That'd be priority over a duplicate capability and poorer cousin to the LHDs. And with manning and funding issues it's much more realistic than a "class of small LPDs".
 
A class of small LPD's could both support the LHD's, carry out independant minor amphibious ops or humanitarian missions and could also be used as command / mother ships in anti priracy / terror missions where ever they are needed.
 
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